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Post by terminatornerd on Oct 26, 2008 16:09:27 GMT -5
I guess I see Cameron's development differently than some people, but that's okay.
You have to also write her for a wide audience. Sometimes you have to drop the scientific aspects of AI's and make it more fantasy like.
And I don't necessarily mean she would go to beg Alison's parents on bended knee to forgive her. She would lay the subject and truth out matter of factly, but in her way she is indeed stating she is sorry and hopes they can can see that she is a better individual and wants to change. She's also coming clean to John as well... your love and trust are not lost on the likes of me; you aren't wasting your time.
Alison's parents, at first, think she and John are some teenage crackpots and this is all absurd... until Cameron flashes her eyes blue and they jump back, startled. They start listening then and there. Alison's mom also comments that Cameron looks familiar, almost like her own mother when she was younger.
After this meeting and as John and Cameron are driving away to go back home, you think Cameron has taken it all in stride and is unmoved by the experience (she even feels Alison kick inside her mom). Her head is turned away from John and she's looking out the window of the truck at Alison Young's house fading away in the distance, not speaking and in her own little world. A single tear falls down her left cheek. Fade out.
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Post by chrisimo on Oct 27, 2008 6:22:21 GMT -5
Let's not humanize Cameron. That's been done and done and done to death (most recently by BSG). She's a cyborg and it's really interesting (to me) to see her and John and Sarah deal with that. If Humans and Machines don't get closer together then there will be no future for humans. At least not if the machines are sentient. We simply need some common ground and that just means that humans have to be a little more like machines and machines have to be a little more human. It just amazes me that this whole John & Cameron thing still persists. I've always been curious as to how many people would still be keen to see John & Cameron hooking up if Cameron was a Male Bot. Let's face it all the quasi pseudo intellectual arguments about the evolution of Human relationships that so many people pretend to hide behind would still be valid. The only extra emotional hurdle you'd have to deal with is the homosexual slant, and surely that shouldn't be an issue. Especially for people who consider themselves avant-garde in that they think that John Connor living happily ever after with his Cam Bot is entirely feasible. Bonding is a part of human nature. And bonding with a Terminator is especially cool. There was a father/son type bond between John and 'Uncle Bob' and now we have a female/male type bonding of yet unresolved type between John and Cameron. If it would have been a male bot the potential would be same. Maybe people would then be more looking for a brother type bonding instead of a romantical one but they would still want John and the Terminator to bond. MOD NOTE: Please do not double post. |
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Post by terminatornerd on Oct 27, 2008 20:22:16 GMT -5
Let's not humanize Cameron. That's been done and done and done to death (most recently by BSG). She's a cyborg and it's really interesting (to me) to see her and John and Sarah deal with that. If Humans and Machines don't get closer together then there will be no future for humans. At least not if the machines are sentient. We simply need some common ground and that just means that humans have to be a little more like machines and machines have to be a little more human. It just amazes me that this whole John & Cameron thing still persists. I've always been curious as to how many people would still be keen to see John & Cameron hooking up if Cameron was a Male Bot. Let's face it all the quasi pseudo intellectual arguments about the evolution of Human relationships that so many people pretend to hide behind would still be valid. The only extra emotional hurdle you'd have to deal with is the homosexual slant, and surely that shouldn't be an issue. Especially for people who consider themselves avant-garde in that they think that John Connor living happily ever after with his Cam Bot is entirely feasible. Bonding is a part of human nature. And bonding with a Terminator is especially cool. There was a father/son type bond between John and 'Uncle Bob' and now we have a female/male type bonding of yet unresolved type between John and Cameron. If it would have been a male bot the potential would be same. Maybe people would then be more looking for a brother type bonding instead of a romantical one but they would still want John and the Terminator to bond. With the introduction of Riley and the bad attitude John is displaying the writers IMHO broke the cardinal Terminator fan rule started with T2... John has a good raport with machines. He bonds with them, they bond with him. He understands them, and they, in turn, see that he has an interest in them and understands there is something "more" lurking inside besides wires and chips and metal. Uncle Bob was not a toaster to him... and Uncle Bob (Arnold-bot to some) became more "real" because of his interactions with John. John is supposed to be a good person with a good heart and it rubs off on the people and machines he interacts with. That's why people follow his lead, that's why machines start to have a soul and value human life... that's something John does too. There's nothing scientific about it... The Terminator is a a sci-fi fantasy with a moral center folks, not an MIT graduate's doctoral thesis on artificial intelligence. So, when I see them (the writers and the characters) taking a passive roll in response to Judgment Day as if it is inevitable, so we might as well sit on our butts and ride it out, rather than an active one I get a little perturbed. It's being proactive rather than reactive. Offense rather than defense. This is the end of the world as we know it... death and destruction on the ultimate scale: man AND nature pay the price for Skynet's evil vendetta. Now it's time for Sarah, John, Derek, and even Cameron to get some pay back and royally pulverize those "Turkish" hard drives. And as they say: payback's a bitch. That does not mean there shouldn't be solid drama or humor or anything else, it just means that they are actively taking the fight to Skynet rather than Skynet always taking the fight to them. They are collectively saying that we will not go gentle into that good night. Get angry, get involved, and FIGHT! That means Riley too... if you're going to use her, use her well or drop the character like a discarded brick (either way, it should be a John and Cameron tag team). There is a reason for the words of Sarah Connor at the end of T2: "The unknown future rolls toward us. I face it for the first time with a sense of hope. Because of a machine, a Terminator, can learn the value of human life... maybe we can too." It's the central purpose of Arnold's character... a killer cyborg becomes a beacon for what we humans should aspire to be. A hunk of metal and circuits understands what it means to be a good and decent individual... why the hell can't we? It has nothing to do with science or arguments for AI's being sentient or not... he is a mirror held up to the audience. Take a look at yourselves. Do you like what you see? You can do better... you must do better. That is the fundamental argument for Cameron's ascension to greatness, a full on relationship with John and John with her (body, mind, and soul), and the pinnacle of what we humans can be: loving, caring, helpful, empathetic, and compassionate beings towards one another and to nature. Killing and war and global eco-destruction are pure and unadulterated pieces of crap. We are brought low because of them. We humans are at our worst when we commit these grave sins. The world can continue if we decide this is what we truly can and must act like. This is hope. This is the goal and should be the goal of this show. That, besides being an exciting and thrilling 2 1/2 hours at the movies, is why Terminator 2 was made. That is why I strongly urge that the show get back on the horse and be all that it can be and get energized. I also feel that in keeping with the story of hope, that Judgment Day should not be a foregone conclusion this time around and that Cameron and John are allowed to continue on together at the end of the show by the very fundamentals of love and parental sacrifice by none other than... Sarah Connor. A parent would never, ever want to outlive their children and loved ones they hold dear, and would do anything and everything to keep them safe. Sarah's cancer may come back, but she does not die in vain. She was here for a reason: she realizes that Cameron is an equal to a human and to her son... there is no difference, there is no qualifying statement to say otherwise. Her son needs to live on and he needs Cameron in his possibly crazy life. Sarah Connor, famous machine hater, learns to love Cameron. In an insane world, Cameron is the sanest choice, sanest partner for John. And that, my friends, is what I have to say on this subject. =) |
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traitorsgate
Sergeant
This is Cam. She's trained for an Off-World kick murder squad. Talk about Beauty and the Beast.
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Post by traitorsgate on Oct 27, 2008 21:15:13 GMT -5
This is hope. This is the goal and should be the goal of this show. That, besides being an exciting and thrilling 2 1/2 hours at the movies, is why Terminator 2 was made. That is why I strongly urge that the show get back on the horse and be all that it can be and get energized. I also feel that in keeping with the story of hope, that Judgment Day should not be a foregone conclusion this time around and that Cameron and John are allowed to continue on together at the end of the show by the very fundamentals of love and parental sacrifice by none other than... Sarah Connor. A parent would never, ever want to outlive their children and loved ones they hold dear, and would do anything and everything to keep them safe. Sarah's cancer may come back, but she does not die in vain. She was here for a reason: she realizes that Cameron is an equal to a human and to her son... there is no difference, there is no qualifying statement to say otherwise. Her son needs to live on and he needs Cameron in his possibly crazy life. Sarah Connor, famous machine hater, learns to love Cameron. In an insane world, Cameron is the sanest choice, sanest partner for John. And that, my friends, is what I have to say on this subject. =) Well each to his own, but I do hope you were being sarcastic. The Hollywood Studio system has never been as altruistic as you have eluded to. T2 was made for one simple reason, to cash in on the unexpected success of T1 and with the advances in the burgeoning CGI industry it enabled James Cameron to throw in some eye candy he couldn't do with the original. |
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Post by terminatornerd on Oct 27, 2008 23:58:03 GMT -5
Well each to his own, but I do hope you were being sarcastic. The Hollywood Studio system has never been as altruistic as you have eluded to. T2 was made for one simple reason, to cash in on the unexpected success of T1 and with the advances in the burgeoning CGI industry it enabled James Cameron to throw in some eye candy he couldn't do with the original. Does it look like I'm joking or being sarcastic...? Nope. Didn't think so. ;D Sure the studio may not have had altruistic intentions just as the Halcyon Group sees their purchase of the Terminator franchise as one big cash cow and merchandising bonanza. However, if you look at the bulk of James Cameron's writing work there has always been an element of the positive weaved within... a kind of moral compass, if you will. Arnold said he wouldn't have signed on to T2 if he thought his character was going to be bad or the movie wasn't going to have some sort of positive vibe either. At that point in time he felt the same way as James Cameron did (and I think still does). In The Terminator Kyle's love for Sarah allows him to travel through time and risk it all to protect her and be with her and sacrifice himself for her well being and the future of the world. The Terminator is then terminated by Sarah. In Aliens you had the motif of parents (mothers) and children and the lengths those parents would go to protect their young. Ripley with Newt, the alien queen with her brood. In The Abyss you had an estranged husband and wife get back together because their love is stronger than anything. You also have the backdrop of the water aliens being a moral voice for change to humanity's evil and destructive ways. In Terminator 2 you have Sarah doing everything she can that she feels is necessary to help her son. However, she gets lost along the way and she herself becomes broken due to the burden placed upon her. She is like an unfeeling Terminator until John can bring her around. You have John also teaching Arnold that killing is not okay, that compassion and empathy is a better course. The same simple message snaps his mom out of her madness and starts turning her around. War is depicted as horrible by showing innocent children getting burned alive by the nuclear blast, playground equipment engulfed in hell fire, and L.A. being ripped apart. A killer robot finds his soul and stops killing and starts loving. James Cameron drives his point home at the end. You have elements of parents and children and husbands and wives learning to trust and be there for each other and protect each other in True Lies, of all movies! They then end up as husband and wife tag team spies to safeguard the world. Jack sacrifices himself for his true love in Titanic and Rose finally gets to be with him in the end. It's a historical romance. Hmmm... I sense a theme here. LOL! |
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Post by stealthgear on Oct 28, 2008 0:06:20 GMT -5
I didn't read the EW article...but I have something to say of course.
First, NO on terminator humanization. Terminators are already established as unemotional robots. Thats the point of the entire franchise. I will jump ship if they give the termies real, biological or spiritual emotion.
The only thing that will get this show back on track is to stick to the Good guys vs. Bad guys plots that involve running or chasing, or foiling skynet. You can have moments of love, humor, new characters and pain in this. John Connor can develop through these struggles, like when he got his leg broken in the car accident, and when he killed sarkissian. You can't develop a character by watching them reflect on issues; viewers won't get anything out of it. You cannot introduce characters every episode and not give them roles in later episodes. Its a letdown not to see Riley and John do anything, while T-1001's child has a whole episode. Also, what is Chromartie doing now? This show needs a singular plot arch based on good guys vs. bad guys and should start putting the characters in that.
This problem is a storytelling issue. It has nothing to do with the high quality production values. Let me illustrate the STORY by retelling and you will see:
Season One: John gets chased by a terminator from the future, and his guardian terminator saves him, while his mom holds on. They run away to the future and try to stop the terminator from existing in the first place.
Season Two: John kills some guy, his guardian goes bad, his step dad's can't handle it, theres this incident at a factory, some scenes with soldiers in the future that make me sad, T-1000 can't babysit, Jesse comes back to do mysterious things, EVERY new character and some of the old ones are un-trustable, old characters have no clue anymore. A guy came back and told them to do....important....things....like go to therapy.....umm no.
So see my point?
Note: And don't forget that its SCIFI, so you can dream really big with the technicals every episode, not just tell me that OH the chips self destruct, now we don't have to talk about them anymore, argh.
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To: Traitorsgate
T2 was hardly a cash-in. It was a breakthrough in storytelling and cinema. The movie studios do not throw money around if the script or director has no plan. The story of terminator doesn't have anything to do with money, unless the director didn't get his FX budget approved.
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Post by terminatornerd on Oct 28, 2008 0:18:44 GMT -5
I didn't read the EW article...but I have something to say of course. First, NO on terminator humanization. Terminators are already established as unemotional robots. Thats the point of the entire franchise. I will jump ship if they give the termies real, biological or spiritual emotion. You, obviously, didn't see the same Terminator 2 movie I did. Did you jump ship after the first Terminator film?  I did see T3, but thought it was junk. There are only two Terminator films in my personal franchise canon. |
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Post by stealthgear on Oct 28, 2008 0:23:35 GMT -5
I didn't read the EW article...but I have something to say of course. First, NO on terminator humanization. Terminators are already established as unemotional robots. Thats the point of the entire franchise. I will jump ship if they give the termies real, biological or spiritual emotion. You, obviously, didn't see the same Terminator 2 movie I did. Did you jump ship after the first Terminator film? Since when do *humans* lower themselves into molten lava? I love T2, its the best. I don't think you understood my point. |
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Post by terminatornerd on Oct 28, 2008 0:35:31 GMT -5
Since when do *humans* lower themselves into molten lava? I love T2, its the best. I don't think you understood my point. Arnold sacrificed himself for John because he thought he was doing the right thing. He even stopped listening to John and wouldn't obey his orders. John told him to stop what he was doing. Arnold said "NO!" Arnold even hugged John and as has been interpreted many times over said he understood the underlying emotion behind why John was crying. Arnold felt the same way, but was not built to cry... or he would have. Arnold cared... the big bad Terminator was really a softy. He also held himself to his sworn oath not to kill anyone. He never did. He was going to a few times before that, but John persuaded him that it was bad. His arguments won the day. |
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Post by terminatornerd on Oct 30, 2008 21:59:01 GMT -5
This classic rock song perfectly reflects my basic thoughts and feelings about this great show... and how I wish it the best and want great and wonderful things from it. It also is the vibe I'm looking for in regards to Cameron, John, and Sarah and their fight for the future, John and Cameron's love for each other (hoping to see it blossom into something beautiful), and everyone's feelings about themselves and their individual situations. No matter how bad it is or could be or was... they can turn this thing around! Right now!  Van Halen's "Right Now" www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbwERleWHfwDon't wanna wait 'til tomorrow Why put it off another day? One by one, little problems Build up, and stand in our way. Oh One step ahead, one step behind it Now ya gotta run to get even Make future plans, I'll dream about yesterday, hey! Come on turn, turn this thing around (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch your magic moment Do it right here and now It means everything Miss a beat, you lose a rhythm An' nothin' falls into place. No! Only missed by a fraction Slipped a little off your pace. Oh! The more things you get, the more you want Just trade in one for the other Workin' so hard to make it easy Whoa, got to turn. Come on, turn this thing around! (Right now) Hey, it's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch that magic moment Do it right here and now It means everything Send a line to me Right now What are ya waitin' for? Oh! Yeah! Right now! [Guitar Solo] (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch that magic moment And do it right, right now (Right now) Oh, right now! It's what's happening to me Right here and now Right now, it's right now Oh! Tell me, what are ya waitin' for? Turn this thing around... |
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schmacky
Major
"Make yourself useful."
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Post by schmacky on Oct 30, 2008 23:45:35 GMT -5
Ooh, I love that song *thinks of a possible fanvid* |
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Post by terminatornerd on Oct 31, 2008 2:09:22 GMT -5
Ooh, I love that song *thinks of a possible fanvid* Love that song too and I hope to see your fanvid! And I actually wouldn't mind hearing it on the show too. It just makes me smile, and turn up the radio every time I hear it. |
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Post by richardstevenhack on Oct 31, 2008 5:32:58 GMT -5
I don't think we need to either "humanize" Cameron OR leave her simply another reprogrammed version of Cromartie.
John said in season one, "in the core of your chip, you're just like him".
Well, my point from day one here is that she's NOT. She IS different - she explicitly said that while eating a chip in season one. And she wasn't just referring to being a different model which is better at emulating human behavior than a T-888. At least I hope not.
She's NOT human - but she's NOT "just" a Terminator.
And that story arc needs to be advanced as much as possible in every episode. Even in this last episode, we see her examining the self-destructed Terminator chip while reading the suicide prevention pamphlet. That in itself tells us something about Cameron. It just doesn't tell us enough.
Maybe I'm just impatient and want the whole story explained by Monday night, but I do think the story arc this season is at least somewhat, if not excruciatingly, slow.
In season one, they spent some effort both keeping Cameron a relatively sympathetic character - not showing her killing the fake Sarkissian's henchman, for instance - yet showing her as a emotionless Terminator ignoring the death of Dmitri and his sister. This was presumably deliberate to keep the actual nature of the character ambiguous. She kept Vic's chip for a reason we haven't explored yet. But the scene where she was examining the destroyed chip recalls that.
In season two, they went overboard on the emotional capacity - or more precisely, the emotional emulation capacity - of Cameron. We got her losing it in episode one, and then "channeling" Allison in episode four. But Summer has hinted in the Virgin video that maybe Cameron is REALLY good at manipulating people. So a lot of that can be written off as both manipulation (in episode one) and her glitch in both episode one and four.
I happen to LIKE the more Terminator aspects of Cameron - the "ruthless innocence", as it were, the logic, the capacity and curiosity to learn. I liked the Terminator who faced off with Allison more than I liked Allison. I liked the Terminator who ignored the deaths of Dimitri and his sister, who prevented John from saving Jordan, even the one who said Andy Good must be killed (although she was wrong about that - he should have been turned).
I want Cameron to be an independent entity who is not dependent on her Skynet programming, OR John's programming. I don't want her to be "in love with" John in a purely human emotional sense, but rather to see John as a strategic ally that she has a lot in common with but needs to seduce in order to get him to help her. And I'd like to see John understand her and agree to be her ally and friend, not just have a teenage crush on her physical form.
Whether the two of them allow that to progress to something more is up to them, then! ;D Personally I think John would be a fool to turn it down - but even Cameron warned him it wouldn't be accepted - certainly not by John's mother, Derek, or the future Resistance.
In other words, they could learn to "love" each other in the sense that any two intelligent entities can, with or without the physical passion (and no doubt Cameron is fully capable of that anyway). It might not be the sort of biochemical reaction you get from a human brain that represents "love" in a human, but it would be close enough for John! ;D In the end, in humans, "love" and sex are things evolution has selected for. There's no reason Cameron - designed to emulate humans as closely as possible - can't engage in behavior and thoughts that are just as much "love" as in humans - while still not being human.
This grows out of her sense of self-preservation. This is the bottom line for all life forms - and I believe this is the distinguishing characteristic of both Skynet and Cameron. They have it, whereas other Terminators do not (except insofar as they need one to complete their missions.) What Skynet and Cameron have is self-initiative beyond self-awareness. They have the purpose of survival.
Skynet has learned to hate - or at least engage in behavior that appears as hate. If Skynet can do that, then Cameron can learn to engage in behavior that appears like "love" to a human.
And if Cameron can have the purpose of survival, then she can have the rational desire - if not necessarily the biochemical need - to bond with other intelligent entities. Because that is the reason bonding exists - because evolution selected it as a behavior that improves the survival probability of individuals in species and the species itself that possess it. Cameron didn't evolve, so she doesn't have that capability inherent in her. But she can learn it.
Cameron can learn to "bond" with John - and vice versa. And since she's "anatomically correct", that can go as far as they want it to go.
None of which makes her "human". It just makes her another intelligent entity that can learn human values - or reject other human values if they don't apply to her or if she considers them not logical.
And that makes for a unique character in fiction. And that makes for an interesting show.
So it's not just the "Romeo and Juliet" aspect that makes the John and Cameron thing interesting - it's the exploration of the deeper issues that make such a thing possible. That's where you get into the exploration of the differences between man and machine, the blurring of those boundaries, and the like.
To a Transhumanist, all this is obvious because we think about what it means to be different and superior to humans in many respects - perhaps even to be "alien" to normal human responses.
Cameron as a Terminator really isn't that different from humans compared to what a true "Transhuman" would be. Neither she nor Skynet really are all that more intelligent. A true Transhuman might be capable of thinking a million or a billion times faster than a human brain. Cameron doesn't even approach that. Cameron probably has the equivalent human IQ of a genius, plus the capabilities of a computer - a perfect memory, perhaps, better sensory apparatus to a degree, and of course more powerful physical abilities. She IS a Transhuman - but not a radically different Transhuman.
So, bottom line, I don't want to see Cameron "humanized". I want her to be an independent and different entity from both humans and Terminators. She needs to be both less human and more human than humans. She needs to have less emotional content than humans, but capable of engaging in "bonding behavior". She needs to be more logical and focused than most humans.
In one of the clips from the November episodes, we see her apparently dangling her feet outside the car window as she and John ride along. She says something to the effect that she's "getting the feeling of getting away from it all". I see this scene as not Cameron becoming human, but more of Cameron trying to repair her damaged relationship with John after episodes one and four. She's got John alone again - no Sarah or Derek to screw up her seduction plans.
That's the Cameron I love! ;D ;D
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Post by terminatornerd on Oct 31, 2008 11:52:27 GMT -5
I don't think we need to either "humanize" Cameron OR leave her simply another reprogrammed version of Cromartie. John said in season one, "in the core of your chip, you're just like him". Well, my point from day one here is that she's NOT. She IS different - she explicitly said that while eating a chip in season one. And she wasn't just referring to being a different model which is better at emulating human behavior than a T-888. At least I hope not. She's NOT human - but she's NOT "just" a Terminator. And that story arc needs to be advanced as much as possible in every episode. Even in this last episode, we see her examining the self-destructed Terminator chip while reading the suicide prevention pamphlet. That in itself tells us something about Cameron. It just doesn't tell us enough. Maybe I'm just impatient and want the whole story explained by Monday night, but I do think the story arc this season is at least somewhat, if not excruciatingly, slow. In season one, they spent some effort both keeping Cameron a relatively sympathetic character - not showing her killing the fake Sarkissian's henchman, for instance - yet showing her as a emotionless Terminator ignoring the death of Dmitri and his sister. This was presumably deliberate to keep the actual nature of the character ambiguous. She kept Vic's chip for a reason we haven't explored yet. But the scene where she was examining the destroyed chip recalls that. In season two, they went overboard on the emotional capacity - or more precisely, the emotional emulation capacity - of Cameron. We got her losing it in episode one, and then "channeling" Allison in episode four. But Summer has hinted in the Virgin video that maybe Cameron is REALLY good at manipulating people. So a lot of that can be written off as both manipulation (in episode one) and her glitch in both episode one and four. I happen to LIKE the more Terminator aspects of Cameron - the "ruthless innocence", as it were, the logic, the capacity and curiosity to learn. I liked the Terminator who faced off with Allison more than I liked Allison. I liked the Terminator who ignored the deaths of Dimitri and his sister, who prevented John from saving Jordan, even the one who said Andy Good must be killed (although she was wrong about that - he should have been turned). I want Cameron to be an independent entity who is not dependent on her Skynet programming, OR John's programming. I don't want her to be "in love with" John in a purely human emotional sense, but rather to see John as a strategic ally that she has a lot in common with but needs to seduce in order to get him to help her. And I'd like to see John understand her and agree to be her ally and friend, not just have a teenage crush on her physical form. Whether the two of them allow that to progress to something more is up to them, then! ;D Personally I think John would be a fool to turn it down - but even Cameron warned him it wouldn't be accepted - certainly not by John's mother, Derek, or the future Resistance. In other words, they could learn to "love" each other in the sense that any two intelligent entities can, with or without the physical passion (and no doubt Cameron is fully capable of that anyway). It might not be the sort of biochemical reaction you get from a human brain that represents "love" in a human, but it would be close enough for John! ;D In the end, in humans, "love" and sex are things evolution has selected for. There's no reason Cameron - designed to emulate humans as closely as possible - can't engage in behavior and thoughts that are just as much "love" as in humans - while still not being human. This grows out of her sense of self-preservation. This is the bottom line for all life forms - and I believe this is the distinguishing characteristic of both Skynet and Cameron. They have it, whereas other Terminators do not (except insofar as they need one to complete their missions.) What Skynet and Cameron have is self-initiative beyond self-awareness. They have the purpose of survival. Skynet has learned to hate - or at least engage in behavior that appears as hate. If Skynet can do that, then Cameron can learn to engage in behavior that appears like "love" to a human. And if Cameron can have the purpose of survival, then she can have the rational desire - if not necessarily the biochemical need - to bond with other intelligent entities. Because that is the reason bonding exists - because evolution selected it as a behavior that improves the survival probability of individuals in species and the species itself that possess it. Cameron didn't evolve, so she doesn't have that capability inherent in her. But she can learn it. Cameron can learn to "bond" with John - and vice versa. And since she's "anatomically correct", that can go as far as they want it to go. None of which makes her "human". It just makes her another intelligent entity that can learn human values - or reject other human values if they don't apply to her or if she considers them not logical. And that makes for a unique character in fiction. And that makes for an interesting show. So it's not just the "Romeo and Juliet" aspect that makes the John and Cameron thing interesting - it's the exploration of the deeper issues that make such a thing possible. That's where you get into the exploration of the differences between man and machine, the blurring of those boundaries, and the like. To a Transhumanist, all this is obvious because we think about what it means to be different and superior to humans in many respects - perhaps even to be "alien" to normal human responses. Cameron as a Terminator really isn't that different from humans compared to what a true "Transhuman" would be. Neither she nor Skynet really are all that more intelligent. A true Transhuman might be capable of thinking a million or a billion times faster than a human brain. Cameron doesn't even approach that. Cameron probably has the equivalent human IQ of a genius, plus the capabilities of a computer - a perfect memory, perhaps, better sensory apparatus to a degree, and of course more powerful physical abilities. She IS a Transhuman - but not a radically different Transhuman. So, bottom line, I don't want to see Cameron "humanized". I want her to be an independent and different entity from both humans and Terminators. She needs to be both less human and more human than humans. She needs to have less emotional content than humans, but capable of engaging in "bonding behavior". She needs to be more logical and focused than most humans. In one of the clips from the November episodes, we see her apparently dangling her feet outside the car window as she and John ride along. She says something to the effect that she's "getting the feeling of getting away from it all". I see this scene as not Cameron becoming human, but more of Cameron trying to repair her damaged relationship with John after episodes one and four. She's got John alone again - no Sarah or Derek to screw up her seduction plans. That's the Cameron I love! ;D ;D I like the idea of Cameron starting out as confused about her feelings for John and humans. That's why she killed Alison, though she said she admired John. She starts out as a manipulator who has her own supposed agenda... until she grows a heart. The cyborg with no feelings except for those she mimics finds that she DOES have them for John and it changes her outlook for the better. This is the fantasy part. Like Arnold her being around John allows her to see a different way, a good way to be. It's like the classic song: "Fooled Around and Fell in Love." She's pulling away and starting to see that being a Terminator isn't her soul purpose in life. I want more... much more. I truly see her getting emotionally jealous in the real sense that Riley has come between John and herself. Riley is severing the bond that Cameron likes with John... being with John, talking to John, being close to him, and sharing something special. MOD NOTE: If you want to discuss possible relationships between the characters of John and Cameron, the Shipper thread is located HERE. Please feel free to elaborate as much as you want.
Let's get this thread back on topic. It is about the Entertainment Weekly article. |
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schmacky
Major
"Make yourself useful."
Posts: 522
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Post by schmacky on Oct 31, 2008 13:16:28 GMT -5
Summer Glau said and I quote, "Cameron doesn't.. she doesn't.. she doesn't feel things. But she can absolutely mimic human emotion."
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