t101
Major
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Post by t101 on Dec 17, 2008 13:08:07 GMT -5
This next episode promises some really intense moments. With Sarah injured and probably missing that leaves John, Cameron, and Derek alone with the Riley issue on their hands. If Riley is going to spill the whole story, the various reactions and allegiances may vary.
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on Dec 17, 2008 13:13:15 GMT -5
I like the title... the idea of a good wound being one that was bad enough to send you home but not bad enough to be long-term disabling (Vietnam-era, IIRC, right Richard? Since in WWII and before, if you healed, you got sent back to your unit until the fighting was done).
And, it seems, from Sarah's case (bullet in your femoral artery, however, is baaaaaaaaaaaad - and not just because the bullet can travel into your heart and cause an embolism and D-E-A-D) because it makes her dream of Kyle...
Although Kyle looked very concerned to be there and who was the woman talking to him in the dream?
It wasn't Michelle Dixon was it?
If Good Wound is going to feature everyone whose death Sarah feels responsible for the episode is going to last 43 days.
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wb5
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Post by wb5 on Dec 17, 2008 15:30:16 GMT -5
This preview wasn't necessarily all about "the good wound", could incorporate some scenes from later episodes as well.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 17, 2008 20:00:35 GMT -5
What might be a real head-twister is if it turns out that the facility is being run by the RESISTANCE under the command of Kyle Reese!
Or that the facility is being run by a Skynet front, but Kyle Reese comes down out of that H-K to rescue her and it turns out he's been back all along running a side operation for future John since he couldn't trust either his past self or his mother to do anything right.
Well, if you want to play games about "they've changed the future so all the time lines are now different", there's no reason NOT to bring Kyle Reese back in a different time. Why not make the whole show ridiculous if you're going to go that way? I mean, all it does is take the emphasis off the main concept - stopping Skynet - and allow the writers to be "cool".
And did anybody see the mysterious Mr. Walsh in the scene where Sarah is telling Derek that she senses Skynet around? That bald-headed guy in the back looked awfully like our Mr. Walsh (whom Vicheron thinks retired to Europe after selling "The Turk" to Weaver, heh, heh.)
And who was Jesse strangling at the end? Looked like her and Kyle but I can't be sure.
John saying, "I made the call - live with it" to Derek bodes ill for Jesse. But who was the male figure being turned over by Derek, apparently dead?
Cameron's face when she saw Riley bleeding wasn't exactly smug, but it wasn't surprised either. She looked very interested as if to say "Yeah, I told you so, John!" It was John who looked horrified. He clearly doesn't understand how this could happen.
And I don't think Riley did this as a mere attempt to continue to get John away from Cameron. It was a "suicide attempt", not a real suicide, because you don't commit suicide in someone else's bathroom (usually) - although it has been known to happen. I believe the boyfriend of Michelle Pfeiffer's sister shot himself in her home. But it was definitely a serious attempt because Riley was in a bad situation: kicked out of her foster home, beat up and ordered about by the woman she thinks saved her, and threatened by a Terminator in the present - well, seeing her background she's pretty much a frightened rabbit and not the sassy modern day "bad ass ninja" girl we thought she was.
Speaking of which, I wonder if she knew Cromartie was a Terminator when he barged in that time. She definitely knows Cameron is a Terminator so it's not surprising that she got scared when Cameron confronted her. Cameron did it really well, too, because she doesn't know that Riley knows she's a Terminator.
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traitorsgate
Sergeant
This is Cam. She's trained for an Off-World kick murder squad. Talk about Beauty and the Beast.
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Post by traitorsgate on Dec 17, 2008 20:34:53 GMT -5
What might be a real head-twister is if it turns out that the facility is being run by the RESISTANCE under the command of Kyle Reese! Or that the facility is being run by a Skynet front, but Kyle Reese comes down out of that H-K to rescue her and it turns out he's been back all along running a side operation for future John since he couldn't trust either his past self or his mother to do anything right. Well, if you want to play games about "they've changed the future so all the time lines are now different", there's no reason NOT to bring Kyle Reese back in a different time. Why not make the whole show ridiculous if you're going to go that way? I mean, all it does is take the emphasis off the main concept - stopping Skynet - and allow the writers to be "cool". Frankly the only thing ridiculous about that premise is the Kyle Reese angle. If you ignore that aspect and focus on the idea of the Human Resistance sending people back to set up facilities that could aid them in a future war well that makes perfect sense. In fact it makes a whole lot more sense than the Dogmatic reliance on John Connor being mankind's one and only hope against Skynet. So perhaps the writers are finally realising that sticking to the Terminator Canon is not going to bring in new fans to the franchise but possibly the prospect of expanding the Terminator story beyond the John Connor arc just might. Granted if Warner Bros have legal caveats in place that preclude this then it's a moot point but at least the writers might be able to dangle the prospect of a post Judgement Day world without John Connor. |
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 17, 2008 22:01:24 GMT -5
It's hard to tell just how far the writers and producers are willing to go NOW to step outside the canon. There have been hints in recent interviews that Josh thinks he can pretty much do what he wants now, ignoring T-3 and T-4, if not entirely T-2.
This is a big risk, however. I've argued all along that the fundamental error is in trying to force the future to change the past. This was Skynet's basic error. If it had never tried to kill Sarah in the first place, no information transfer to the past would have occurred and things would have unfolded as they did.
And with every Terminator sent back to insure its existence, to cover for the exposure it caused by the first Terminator, it merely gives past John and hence future John more information to use against it both in the past and in the future.
Trying to change the past is THE fundamental error.
Now, on the other hand, there is Vicheron's interpretation of this - that none of this would have happened without the influence from the future. Without the Terminator coming back, there would be no Skynet, no Judgment Day, etc. In other words, basic time paradox - the future creates the past.
The problem is that the concept is bad news for trying to create a story arc that has any consistency or sense at all. Following the concept that everything in the past is essentially controlled by the future is a recipe for "black hole" "jump the shark" ridiculousness.
Far better to keep the past able to change the future irregardless of what is sent back from the future, and keep the people in the past more concerned about dealing with the present than the future and just hope their actions in the present make for a better future.
The writers need to just stop.Stop with the hints sent back from the future, stop with the unending stream of Resistance fighters and Terminators from the future, and just deal with the present (and in episodes set in the future with the consequences of those present acts). You can write one hell of a bang up action sci-fi show without any of that. The odd Terminator sent back is fine, even the odd Resistance fighter like Derek is fine.
After all, now that Cromartie has morphed into John Henry, aren't we due for another Terminator to come back whose primary mission is to kill John? That I can accept, since it's the basic franchise line - send Terminator back to kill John. Not that we haven't done that four times now, but what the hell? Skynet has no imagination and a lot of determination, so keep at it.
Meanwhile, make the Skynet conspiracy to create it bigger and better than just Weaver and John Henry. Make the problems for the Connors bigger and better by increasing the government heat on them. Link the two - make the government be the ones to create Skynet, like in T-3. Have Skynet already influencing the government today to do it. That sets up plenty of plot lines and possibilities for complicated plots that can easily carry the show for five or more seasons.
But if they push this "the future controls the past" line of thinking, they're going to find themselves in a "jump the shark" situation all too soon.
Make the show more like "24" or :"Fringe" and you can get new viewers - as long as the marketing can show people that it's more than just the usual Terminator stuff. I think that's the problem with the show. Matt Yglesias, the wannabe political pundit, saw the pilot episode last season and thought it sucked. The obvious reason is that the show just completely mirrored the T-2 plot. And all the descriptions of the show you see online just repeat that basic concept. But the show is and should be much more than that. The basic outline can and must stay the same, or you might as well not call it "Terminator" at all. But the expression of the franchise can be made much bigger and more interesting.
But playing games with time travel is just going to become confusing to anybody who isn't a hard care Terminator and time travel sci-fi fan. And there just aren't enough of those to keep the show on the air.
I don't think it's important to show John Connor as being the only leader of the Resistance or any ot that. That's only relevant to the future Terminator movies. In the present, the show can keep things where he is the future leader but keep that whole end of it mostly in the myth as it has been up to now. It's really not relevant to the present situation unless one messes around with all these hints and endless Resistance people coming back. Take that away and nobody would care about future John.
In the same sense, get rid of the notion of Cameron just being a Terminator sent back to protect him, and you can explore Cameron in all sorts of ways that would make the character more interesting. And what her relationship is with future John becomes less relevant if her motivation is something other than being fixated on John. My conception of Cameron allows for her to be motivated by something more than John Connor, so their future relationship is significant only in terms of what she is trying to accomplish in the present.
Keep the show's focus on the present. The problem is that the writers and producers really like doing the future stuff - which is certainly useful at times to influence the present - but an over concentration on what the present means for the future and the effect of the future on the past is a recipe for disaster.
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Post by vicheron on Dec 18, 2008 0:07:07 GMT -5
Now, on the other hand, there is Vicheron's interpretation of this - that none of this would have happened without the influence from the future. Without the Terminator coming back, there would be no Skynet, no Judgment Day, etc. In other words, basic time paradox - the future creates the past. It's not just my interpretation. This was the idea that James Cameron had in mind when he made T1. He took out the scene where it was revealed that Cyberdyne owned the factory where the Terminator was destroyed because it was too obvious. There were also several scenes in the earlier drafts that hinted even more at the predestination paradox. Originally, the Terminator was supposed to dismember the different Sarah Connors to confirm their identity because the real Sarah Connor had a metal fragment in her leg which would later be revealed to have been caused by the final battle against the Terminator where Kyle Reese blew it up and a piece of shrapnel impaled Sarah in the leg. The "no fate" message was also longer, I don't remember the specifics but there was a cryptic part about waiting for a light to change colors, which later turns out to be about the button that controlled the press that crushed the Terminator. Sarah was supposed to wait until the light above the button changed colors before pressing it so that the press would crush the Terminator. |
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Post by thecolours on Dec 18, 2008 2:50:41 GMT -5
I don't care about anything but KYLE! KYLE! KYLE! KYLE! Damn they did an amazingly eerie job of making him look just like Michael Biehn. It was a mistake to show Kyle in the promos. They should have left him out. If it turns out that Kyle is nothing more than one of Sarah's visions, than it will be a huge let down for some people. If it turns out he's real, than it's going to piss off the fans who thinks it violates the cannon to bring him back from the death. Either way, the promo has mislead the audience. Shocking, that is so unlike Fox. |
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Post by thecolours on Dec 18, 2008 2:56:21 GMT -5
I like the title... the idea of a good wound being one that was bad enough to send you home but not bad enough to be long-term disabling (Vietnam-era, IIRC, right Richard? Since in WWII and before, if you healed, you got sent back to your unit until the fighting was done). And, it seems, from Sarah's case (bullet in your femoral artery, however, is baaaaaaaaaaaad - and not just because the bullet can travel into your heart and cause an embolism and D-E-A-D) because it makes her dream of Kyle... Although Kyle looked very concerned to be there and who was the woman talking to him in the dream? It wasn't Michelle Dixon was it? If Good Wound is going to feature everyone whose death Sarah feels responsible for the episode is going to last 43 days. It wasn't Michelle Dixon. She's dead. And, the actress in the promo looks completely different than Sonya Walger. |
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Post by driftlight23 on Dec 18, 2008 3:15:59 GMT -5
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wb5
Private
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Post by wb5 on Dec 18, 2008 19:27:19 GMT -5
Speaking of which, I wonder if she knew Cromartie was a Terminator when he barged in that time. She definitely knows Cameron is a Terminator so it's not surprising that she got scared when Cameron confronted her. Cameron did it really well, too, because she doesn't know that Riley knows she's a Terminator. I think she was well aware what he was - she must have noticed John getting really, really nervous and guessed what it meant. Cromartie's weird behaviour would have been a further tip-off if she didn't know for sure. And she handled him well, not pushing him too much so he wouldn't become violent (and she didn't actually attempt to call the police). It was pretty bad-ass anyway, I think. I agree she really did attempt to kill herself; her personal situation looks very bad, she has no-one to talk to and she knows what's coming. What she needs is to come clean with John, he will protect her and then she has plenty of people to talk about it, as well as a home. She will just have to accept the half-tame and slightly disgruntled Terminator in the house.... Now, on the other hand, there is Vicheron's interpretation of this - that none of this would have happened without the influence from the future. Without the Terminator coming back, there would be no Skynet, no Judgment Day, etc. In other words, basic time paradox - the future creates the past. The problem is that the concept is bad news for trying to create a story arc that has any consistency or sense at all. Following the concept that everything in the past is essentially controlled by the future is a recipe for "black hole" "jump the shark" ridiculousness. Far better to keep the past able to change the future irregardless of what is sent back from the future, and keep the people in the past more concerned about dealing with the present than the future and just hope their actions in the present make for a better future. I agree with this, I don't like the Babylon-5 style of "future makes the past" storylines because it can never make sense. It's fine for one or two movies where the concept isn't given much thought and it is only to enable a cool premise, but I think a TV series better avoids focusing on this line. Different timelines is more to my liking; this also allows the present-day characters in TSCC to ultimately avoid judgement day alltogether, which would make it different from the movies in a positive way (not that there is anything wrong with the movies, but a positive ending for TSCC would IMO be nice). |
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Post by vicheron on Dec 18, 2008 22:38:04 GMT -5
Different timelines wouldn't necessarily allow them to prevent Judgment Day either. Skynet will always be trying to ensure its own existence. It's kind of like in Blade, how no one can expose the existence of vampires to the public because the vampires have familiars in high positions that prevent evidence from getting out. Skynet could have similar contingencies. It could have Terminators in the past to ensure that Skynet gets created.
It all goes around in a circle. It's just like Blade and the X-Files. In order for Blade to get rid of the vampires, he has to expose their existence to the public but in order to expose them to the public he has to destroy the vampires. In order for Mulder to destroy all the conspiracies, he has to expose them to the public but in order to expose them, he has to destroy them first. In order for the Connors to prevent the creation of Skynet, they have to destroy all the Terminators that have been sent back, but in order to stop Terminators from being sent back they have to prevent the creation of Skynet.
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Post by thecolours on Dec 19, 2008 1:48:34 GMT -5
If you look at the promo at the .04 second mark, John is wearing the same clothes as Kyle. And, it's the same attire Kyle wore in T1. Hmm....Coincidence?
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 19, 2008 8:46:45 GMT -5
It still makes no sense to me that everything has to happen in the future - the future is indeed SET - yet Connor sends Kyle back to say it's not. And this means that the only thing that happens, that a Terminator comes back to kill Sarah, must not happen, but that everything else that happens from that point on is fixed and cannot be changed.
It's nonsense. The whole concept is just nonsense.
The more you cite James Cameron, the more it's clear to me that he really didn't have a clue what he was talking about or doing with these movies. And he probably knocked those scenes out as it became more and more obvious that was the case. He started to see the "Black Hole" of time travel nonsense and consciously decided to minimize it.
You just don't tell someone the future is not set and there is no fate but what you make - and then claim this is all done just to insure that everything from then on is totally fixed and nothing change except this one thing - that Sarah Connor lives so John Connor lives.
Sorry, ENNNNNN! Wrong guess, Hans!
Maybe from the religious viewpoint that John Connor is Jesus Christ and Sarah is Mary, it makes some sense. But from a rational standpoint, it makes zero sense.
Friedman had better start making some more definitive statements before I feel I've fallen into a tar pit like the Terminator Derek and John took out. I never took LSD in the Sixties and I don't like being made to feel that I'm having "flashbacks" every week of some alternate universe where nothing makes any sense except that it's :"cool" or just confusing.
Bottom line: I'm not interested in a show that makes no sense whatsoever.
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on Dec 19, 2008 12:01:47 GMT -5
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