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Post by allergygal on Dec 19, 2008 13:31:23 GMT -5
I don't care about anything but KYLE! KYLE! KYLE! KYLE! Damn they did an amazingly eerie job of making him look just like Michael Biehn. It was a mistake to show Kyle in the promos. They should have left him out. If it turns out that Kyle is nothing more than one of Sarah's visions, than it will be a huge let down for some people. If it turns out he's real, than it's going to piss off the fans who thinks it violates the cannon to bring him back from the death. Either way, the promo has mislead the audience. Shocking, that is so unlike Fox. Oh I completely disagree. Kykle in the promos got some immediate buzz going. I don't see how Kyle could be anything other than dream/vision, but even for those that think he's real, they're still gong to be happy to have some Sarah/Kyle interaction. It's total win.
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DEM
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Post by DEM on Dec 19, 2008 13:36:02 GMT -5
... but even for those that think he's real, they're still going to be happy to have some Sarah/Kyle interaction. It's total win. Oh. Dear. I fluvs ya, but... I completely disagree. I tell ya, I'd always admired James Cameron as a filmmaker, but when I heard him describe the issues with the deleted Sarah/Kyle T2 scene and why it was dropped, my respect for him increased even more. I rilly rilly don't want this series to go against that very wise (IMO) decision. (Sarah is a weak enough protag -- narratively speaking -- as it is.) We'll see how it goes, yeah?
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Post by allergygal on Dec 19, 2008 14:15:49 GMT -5
... but even for those that think he's real, they're still going to be happy to have some Sarah/Kyle interaction. It's total win. Oh. Dear. I fluvs ya, but... I completely disagree. I tell ya, I'd always admired James Cameron as a filmmaker, but when I heard him describe the issues with the deleted Sarah/Kyle T2 scene and why it was dropped, my respect for him increased even more. I rilly rilly don't want this series to go against that very wise (IMO) decision. (Sarah is a weak enough protag -- narratively speaking -- as it is.) We'll see how it goes, yeah? I never liked the Kyle dream from T2 either and I'm quite glad it wasn't in the theatrical release. But that was basically Kyle telling Sarah to get her act together and go protect John. I'm not expecting this to be anything like that. In fact, I'd be very disappointed if Sarah needed a Kyle vision to get motivated. That's so not her. But Sarah having a Kyle dream while she's recovering from a serious gunshot wound? I look forward to that. I'm thinking she regains consciousness, wants to get the hell out of there and Kyle is a vision that she follows to to do that.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Dec 19, 2008 14:17:19 GMT -5
I don't see how bringing Kyle into the story affects Sarah status as a weak protagonist one way or the other.
Tentatively, I'm more in the "total win" category since Kyle figures so hugely in Sarah's life that at some point it has to be addressed.
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DEM
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Post by DEM on Dec 19, 2008 14:58:22 GMT -5
But Sarah having a Kyle dream while she's recovering from a serious gunshot wound? I look forward to that. I'm thinking she regains consciousness, wants to get the hell out of there and Kyle is a vision that she follows to to do that. Thus, Kyle is her motivator. See, that's why they could never get the T2 scene to work even though they pounded on it and re-worked and re-worked it. And, no, I don't agree that Kyle must be addressed, and even if he were, I don't see why it needs to be via Sarah having fever dreams of Her Dead Romeo. But, ya know, that's the way I roll. Sucks to be me.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Dec 19, 2008 15:57:39 GMT -5
Thus, Kyle is her motivator. Since they've established that Sarah's been having hallucinations of her past selves, I don't think a hallucination of Kyle turning up suddenly means Sarah's any more motivated by Kyle than she has been since the end of The Terminator. To me, assuming that Kyle shows up in GW, that's kind of the point - who is Sarah Connor, why does she do what she does - for John, for Kyle, for herself? And really, the last option has always been the least likely. What I hope to see from GW is a continuation of the debate begun in EWH about who Sarah Connor is to herself. I think there comes a point where to develop Sarah Connor's character further, the story has to deal with her relationship with Kyle. Now if Kyle himself turns up that's whole different bundle of fish.
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Post by littleb on Dec 19, 2008 16:13:43 GMT -5
But Sarah having a Kyle dream while she's recovering from a serious gunshot wound? I look forward to that. I'm thinking she regains consciousness, wants to get the hell out of there and Kyle is a vision that she follows to to do that. He seems to have more of a role in the trailer than ghostly-motivator vision dude. He looks to be in a scene with a different woman (the one in scrubs) who seems to know him, seems to think he was dead and knows about John. I dunno, he just seems to have a solid presence in the clips - i.e. actually doing physical stuff, like looking through the window blind - that would imply he's more than a dream vision version. I never liked it, the script for the scene was crappy. I hated that "on your feet solider" line, it just didn't work delivery-wise. And yeah, it did make her too reliant on her fella to give her a kick up the arse. <BG> I think I'm with you on this one. I don't think Sarah needs Motivator!Romeo Kyle, I think she's stronger than that and, since his death, she has made her own path for herself and John. What I do think would be interesting would be to see her reaction to Kyle bearing in mind how much she's changed. She still speaks very fondly of him, probably still loves some ideal of him but does she actually still need him? Would this Kyle - if he is a tangible non-dream character - be markedly different from T1 Kyle? Sarah would remember their time together, this Kyle couldn't possibly... could he? She's going to be walking a knife edge as it is emotionally - injured, alone, having just killed for the first time. Kyle walking back in and holding his hand out to her could tip her right over into crazy. (Which is always fun.) On a side note, what the hell will Derek say? Or John? From a practical POV, I can't see Kyle sticking about for long, his place in the cast is kinda taken already with Derek but his character appearing has certainly put the cat amongst the pigeons... And on a completely different side note, I think Jesse has been mentioned as the throttler in the trailer, I reckon it looks more like Sarah as the police (or men supposed to be police) are searching her room for her...?
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t101
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Post by t101 on Dec 19, 2008 16:55:56 GMT -5
To be honest I'd rather the first episode after the break deals with the core characters and the situation at hand rather than flashbacks/visions of Kyle. I want something more fast paced like "Samson and Delilah" as opposed to slow and introspective.
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Alexis
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Post by Alexis on Dec 19, 2008 16:56:03 GMT -5
Well, I just think that having Kyle Reese back is not as crazy as it sounds, if you want to know the reasons, please go to Time Travel Discussion Thread
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Post by allergygal on Dec 19, 2008 18:55:43 GMT -5
But Sarah having a Kyle dream while she's recovering from a serious gunshot wound? I look forward to that. I'm thinking she regains consciousness, wants to get the hell out of there and Kyle is a vision that she follows to to do that. Thus, Kyle is her motivator. See, that's why they could never get the T2 scene to work even though they pounded on it and re-worked and re-worked it. And, no, I don't agree that Kyle must be addressed, and even if he were, I don't see why it needs to be via Sarah having fever dreams of Her Dead Romeo. But, ya know, that's the way I roll. Sucks to be me. I don't think Sarah needs Motivator!Romeo Kyle, I think she's stronger than that and, since his death, she has made her own path for herself and John. What I do think would be interesting would be to see her reaction to Kyle bearing in mind how much she's changed. She still speaks very fondly of him, probably still loves some ideal of him but does she actually still need him? Would this Kyle - if he is a tangible non-dream character - be markedly different from T1 Kyle? Sarah would remember their time together, this Kyle couldn't possibly... could he? She's going to be walking a knife edge as it is emotionally - injured, alone, having just killed for the first time. Kyle walking back in and holding his hand out to her could tip her right over into crazy. (Which is always fun.) If Sarah wakes up in a daze, trying to figure out where the hell she is and where the exit is, I don't think a vision of Kyle showing her the way out makes her weak or dependent on him for motivation (assuming that's even what's going on in the preview). Now if she was laying there in some weird HK-developer's medical facility saying "more painkillers please... and more jello," then yeah, a Kyle vision would be a motivator. I don't think that's what it's going to be, though. Hope not anyway. And on a completely different side note, I think Jesse has been mentioned as the throttler in the trailer, I reckon it looks more like Sarah as the police (or men supposed to be police) are searching her room for her...? I did a frame-by-frame view and I'm sure it's Sarah, not Jesse.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 19, 2008 21:04:20 GMT -5
Just looked again at the promo - yeah, it looks like it is Sarah strangling a cop.
Guess she's decided she doesn't like cops, finally, after protecting them from just about everybody (except the one Cameron beat up to steal his uniform).
How does she end up in a hospital after passing out in the warehouse doorway? Nobody knows she's there. Nobody else is around - except whoever comes down out of that drone, presumably. Which is why I'm inclined to believe that might actually be a Resistance craft, not a Skynet HK.
Consider this hypothesis: We know Skynet is protecting its supply of coltan, securing control of nuclear power plants, and might be developing its weapons in the present time. What's to say future John decides to do the same thing, and sends Kyle back to head up an operation to build weapons to deal with Skynet's future weapons. That would be a smart thing to do - build up the Resistance before it''s needed, as I've said before.
That doesn't explain why the guard shot Sarah - but then he didn't know who she was now, did he? She stomps in waving a gun, he does his job and shoots her. Friendly fire.
Of course, it makes no sense that all this would be done without present John's and Sarah's knowledge - which is why they could end up in a friendly fire incident - but maybe they have some excuse for that. I've been saying the Connors need help - and initially in episode two of season one I thought that Derek's team might have been it - since it was obviously intended to be so before they all got killed by Vic.
So maybe there's another team of Resistance fighters now back operating on an even bigger scale than Derek's team. Maybe since the fans have said they want to see more of Kyle Reese, they decided to add him to the show for a while as part of this other team.
Maybe Kyle is in charge of building a time machine in the present, like "The Engineer" John allegedly sent back to 1963 to build the bank time machine. We've seen one time machine in the present - one that can send people forward, not just back. So maybe Kyle is here because of another such.
If the Resistance is under pressure in the future and the time machines in the future are being destroyed, then building one in the past would be an interesting strategy.
Also, we saw the blood wall guy come through while being shot. Maybe he didn't come from the future - maybe he came from another time closer to the present through a different time machine.
Or maybe Kyle's back trying to deal with Skynet building HK's in the present.
I'm not sure any of that would be a good idea, but handled right, it might make the store more interesting.
I'm still convinced that was Walsh in the scene where Sarah is telling Derek she senses Skynet around. He has a bigger part to play than just being the guy who sold The Turk to Weaver. It was never explained how he got the machine anyway, other than presumably buying it from Sarkissian. How and why? He was obviously working for Weaver, but how did that come about? And if he was a one time deal, why is he in this scene?
Notice the scene after Kyle introduces himself to Sarah - the four of the Connor team standing watching something with the camera pulling back from them as though from a perspective of something lifting off from the ground. Who do you think they're watching? It's almost certainly the drone - and they're probably watching Kyle Reese take off.
And what is that object being pulled from the ground? Any ideas?
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DEM
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Post by DEM on Dec 19, 2008 23:34:28 GMT -5
If Sarah wakes up in a daze, trying to figure out where the hell she is and where the exit is, I don't think a vision of Kyle showing her the way out makes her weak or dependent on him for motivation (assuming that's even what's going on in the preview). Regardless, it would move us into the realm of the supernatural. I like fantasy and I like sci-fi, but I don't like my sci-fi to become fantasy. In T2 Sarah wasn't lying there in despair; we'd already seen her fierceness, her determination not to give in to despair. Nevertheless, they couldn't figure out a way to make a Dream!Lover-Kyle scene work in the context of Sarah's journey and current state. The original assertion was this: That a Sarah/Kyle scene would be a total win for viewers of every stripe. All I'm saying is: Hello! No.
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Post by allergygal on Dec 20, 2008 1:03:15 GMT -5
Regardless, it would move us into the realm of the supernatural. I like fantasy and I like sci-fi, but I don't like my sci-fi to become fantasy. Not necessarily. Well, I guess it depends on your perspective. I didn't feel like Sarah seeing visions of herself moved us into the realm of fantasy and I'm expecting a Kyle appearance to be more or less the same type of thing, except with some interaction. I don't see that as fantasy - just Sarah's messed up head. In T2 Sarah wasn't lying there in despair; we'd already seen her fierceness, her determination not to give in to despair. Nevertheless, they couldn't figure out a way to make a Dream!Lover-Kyle scene work in the context of Sarah's journey and current state. The original assertion was this: That a Sarah/Kyle scene would be a total win for viewers of every stripe. All I'm saying is: Hello! No.I took that T2 dream as Kyle being the reason Sarah got motivated to escape pescadero. That's why I really didn't like it. I haven't watched it in a long time, though. Oh - I must have been too vague in the "win" comment. That was a response to the thecolours' post about the promo with Kyle being a bad idea because it's misleading. It was the marketing aspect of showing us Kyle in a preview that I meant was win (because it's stirred up so much talk already). I figure no matter who thinks what about it, everyone wants to know what the deal is. I mean look at us all — debating over 3 seconds of footage from a promo for a show that's going to air in 8 weeks! ;D Whether or not the Sarah/Kyle interaction will ultimately be good or bad, who knows? I have only my hope that it'll be good. If it ends up being more or less like the cut T2 dream, I can't imagine I'll like it. Maybe we should never see Kyle and Sarah together, even in a dream. But I can't help but be excited about it anyway just because... SARAH AND KYLE! It might be enough to make me forget all about poor Charley.
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Post by thecolours on Dec 20, 2008 1:44:13 GMT -5
Coming back from winter break, and being in a new time-slot, this episode needs to feel like a quasi-premiere. Keep the focus entirely on Sarah, and the 3 dots. We need answers, lots of them too.
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Post by littleb on Dec 20, 2008 6:53:38 GMT -5
Regardless, it would move us into the realm of the supernatural. I like fantasy and I like sci-fi, but I don't like my sci-fi to become fantasy. I like the surreal aspects of the show - the dreams and visions, the turtles and skipping about the timeline. Sarah's had prophetic sort of dreams since T2 (if we count the Kyle one) and they've just continued that into the show. It was a dream that started the whole story off in the Pilot. I guess if she hadn't had the cheese before bed that night, she'd have wed Charley and still be shacked up happily with him cos if she hadn't run he wouldn't have gone to the police, Cromartie wouldn't have found them yadda yadda... Well, he would have found them eventually... they always do I don't think Kyle'll be a vision though, I reckon he's real, there and sent back for a reason. Ditto on both counts although I am getting itchy fingers towards my DVD just to remind myself why I didn't like it in the first place! It always felt shoe-horned in just to get Michael Biehn back somehow. I prefer the reason the show put forward; she broke out of there because she'd signed away her parental rights and immediately couldn't live with that. It has more of an impact and feels right for her character. But I guess then you just have to accept the huge coincidence that John was being hunted on exactly the same day. <shrugs> Oy, Works for me! They are sneaky little sods aren't they? Whatever he's there for, in whatever form I'm guessing even the detractors will be curious enough to tune in and find out. Even if it just means they can get all hot under the collar and shriek "Shark Jump!" on all the boards afterwards. <LOL> Is it 8 weeks?! But I bit all my finger nails already. Not only that but Virgin over here have stopped showing S2 (our next ep would have been Strange Things...) and will pick it up again in Feb. Which is just bloody mean, I thought we might have a chance of catching up some <sobs bitterly> Charley who? <g> I have faith that they all know what they're doing. They must know how emotive the prospect of bringing Kyle back is. FWIW I can't wait to see Sarah's reaction if he really does show up in her hospital room. Hopefully it was in the plan all along and isn't just a ratings grab. And hopefully he has the right polaroid otherwise he ain't even going to recognise her! "Oh sorry miss, wrong room, I'm looking for a blonde..."
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