schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Mar 14, 2009 14:41:56 GMT -5
John can't and shouldn't be emotionally distant as a Commander. Troops want, and need, to know that their commander cares about them. If John is a recluse his entire adult life and only hangs around Cameron.. I don't see him ever really becoming this great leader. I just don't see how it would be possible.
I'm in the military and all the commanders I've had.. I've liked them for different reasons but something they all have shared is this way of making you (the troop) feel like they really give a damn about you. Like, you matter to them. Commanders are like parents. I think a good one has a way of letting their troops know that you're under their wing and they'll take care of you even when you're in the office getting a lecture lashing of a lifetime or getting an award and a pat on the back... good and bad they care. And if there's a commander that doesn't have that quality, the troops below will follow the orders because that's their duty, but there will be no respect and the morale will go down and the mission will not be accomplished as effectively.
John should never be like that. He should never be emotionally distant. If anything, he should be emotionally invested in every single soldier under his command.. and yeah that's a lot of one person to handle, but there's ways of dealing with that. I think if this show makes John Connor in the future out to be some lonely distant man who only talks to Cameron I will be so damn sad and that would just suck. They're implying it's happened with Jesse's timeline and maybe even Derek's but.. if that's what this Johnny turns out to be... blah.
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t101
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Post by t101 on Mar 14, 2009 15:03:38 GMT -5
I don't see what the section you quoted has to do with John and Cameron. The section I quoted is responded to in my first paragraph. The second is just a commentary. "We're never going to see eye to eye on military commanders." Really? I mean that in Cameron's understanding and there are some reasons for it. The people that John cares about endanger him, he could not destroy Cameron and he could not make a strategically sound decision at risk to Riley's life. That is perhaps why he is 'alone' in the future. And clearly not everyone is inspired. So maybe he is not the perfect in every way leader some people imagine him to be. I didn't say either that it's the perfectly correct way to be or that it should be taken to extreme i.e. 'not giving a crap' about anyone. I doubt anything is so black and white about the whole situation. Where did I say it is the same? Where did I ever speak about keeping calm? My point is about sacrificing people you've formed a close emotional bond with. They may be inspired to give their lives for you but what good is it if you can't ask them to? 1) That's not something we know. 2) Yes, that's how John may start to appear to some at least. They're implying it's happened with Jesse's timeline and maybe even Derek's but.. if that's what this Johnny turns out to be... blah. Jesse came to 'save' him, not replace him which at least implies that she used to believe in him and still does.
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Post by Hollow Crown on Mar 14, 2009 15:37:21 GMT -5
I pretty much agree with Schmacky.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 14, 2009 15:37:51 GMT -5
Derek used a little girl as a pawn in a gunfight and he would've killed two disarmed security guards under city hall if Sarah hadn't stopped him. We've never seen Derek show any concern over innocents. Add to that the fact that he'd already scolded John for calling paramedics when Riley tried to take her own life and told Sarah that he thought Riley was "a problem". I wouldn't have expected Derek to high-five anyone about Riley being dead, but I think he would have been secretly relieved about it. The little girl is a red herring because Derek was in control (or so he thought) and he knew he wasn't going to hurt her. At the same time, John Connor's safety trumps baseline morality for both Derek and Sarah. What they'll do to protect John doesn't reflect how they feel about the right and wrong of killing. Also, Riley dead is more of a problem for the Connors than Riley alive. I don't think Derek's in the least bit relieved. And as I said before, John calling the paramedics was a stupid, panicked response. Dude, the Connors don't go to the ER for sucking chest wounds and gunshots - calling EMT because Riley had a Sylvia Plath moment in the bathroom was freaking dumb and John should have known better. I appreciate the effort here to try to convince me this was a great moment of redemption in a season-long progression of Derek's character, but I'm not seeing it at all. His over-the-top reaction to Jesse's comment about maybe some good can come from Riley's death felt like a major short-cut in his character and it's one of the things that ruined the episode for me (along with John being a total unlikeable ass for one episode too many now). The other problem with that scene is that Jesse was way too obvious. She's been so careful all along and now she's showing her cards rather obviously. It's just too convenient for my taste. Dead Riley being a bigger problem than live Riley isn't what Derek meant when he told Jesse "Good? An innocent kid is dead because that metal bitch murdered her in cold blood. No good comes out of that." Maybe I could read his reaction as him being genuinely upset thinking metal killed an innocent kid, not just that an innocent kid got killed. But the look on his face said to me that it wasn't about that, it was about the loss of life in general. And that's much too big of a leap for me to take with Derek. Since Derek's arrival we had the contrast of his and Sarah's methods. She wouldn't kill; he would. And he wouldn't just kill because he had too, he'd kill very easily and without any regret. Killing Andy Goode was about more than trying to change the future — he killed one of his best friends and it didn't bother hit at all. That's more than a difference in methods. The cops in the tunnel were the next bit of evidence that Derek did not value human life. Bringing the little girl into the stand-off showed his lack of concern once again. Sure, you can argue that he felt confident nothing would happen to that little girl, but it was still a risk with a little girl's life. In Automatic, he didn't deny that someone would probably end up dead if he took care of the Greenway mission. In Brothers of Nablus, I'm pretty sure he was going to kill Moishe, but Jesse beat him to it. In Complications, he was going to kill young Fisher — an innocent. He didn't because Jesse killed old Fisher (admittedly I never understood why that stopped him from killing young Fisher, but I didn't get the sense it was because he suddenly felt killing was wrong). Maybe someone needs to write me up an "Idiot's guide to Derek's transformation" ;D
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wb5
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Post by wb5 on Mar 14, 2009 15:47:38 GMT -5
I think if this show makes John Connor in the future out to be some lonely distant man who only talks to Cameron I will be so damn sad and that would just suck. They're implying it's happened with Jesse's timeline and maybe even Derek's but.. if that's what this Johnny turns out to be... blah. I doubt this John will turn out this way. For one, they are still trying to avert Judgment Day (I still hope they will accomplish this, in the end). For another, this John does seem to care about the people he's close to. Cameron, Riley, Derek, Sarah, Charlie, Cheri, Morris, the girl who jumped,... I don't see that changing. I didn't think he was "a total ass" in this episode, far from it.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 14, 2009 16:04:30 GMT -5
I think if this show makes John Connor in the future out to be some lonely distant man who only talks to Cameron I will be so damn sad and that would just suck. They're implying it's happened with Jesse's timeline and maybe even Derek's but.. if that's what this Johnny turns out to be... blah. I think that's absolutely what future!John is in the timeline(s) Cameron, Derek and Jesse have all come from. But this John won't end up that way. Cameron told Sarah that John would be better off alone, but John was alone before. In the timeline Cameron came from, John didn't have her, he didn't have Derek, and Sarah died from cancer when he was just 21 years old. He would have already been old enough to be on his own, but it probably meant 6 years of loneliness and no one to share the burden with before j-day. It's like Sarah said, "what kind of life is that?" That reinforces what she said to John in WHB, "That's our mission, this is our life. If we stop caring about that, then we're lost." I think we can be sure that Sarah will ultimately hold to the idea that the quality of John's life is as important as his basic survival.
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terrasj
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Rossbond Connor Crew
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Post by terrasj on Mar 14, 2009 17:13:22 GMT -5
I think if this show makes John Connor in the future out to be some lonely distant man who only talks to Cameron I will be so damn sad and that would just suck. They're implying it's happened with Jesse's timeline and maybe even Derek's but.. if that's what this Johnny turns out to be... blah. I think that's absolutely what future!John is in the timeline(s) Cameron, Derek and Jesse have all come from. But this John won't end up that way. Cameron told Sarah that John would be better off alone, but John was alone before. In the timeline Cameron came from, John didn't have her, he didn't have Derek, and Sarah died from cancer when he was just 21 years old. He would have already been old enough to be on his own, but it probably meant 6 years of loneliness and no one to share the burden with before j-day. It's like Sarah said, "what kind of life is that?" That reinforces what she said to John in WHB, "That's our mission, this is our life. If we stop caring about that, then we're lost." I think we can be sure that Sarah will ultimately hold to the idea that the quality of John's life is as important as his basic survival. Exactly! Hey, now we're on the same track here Its because of the last time loop cycle in which Future!John was indeed lonely, reclusive, self removed, he was alone in the future (and probably lost anyone he had managed to gotten close to in the future, friends, lovers etc) to the point where he had become reclusive. That highly strengthens the idea why he took to Cameron soo strongly into his companionship (what all entailed in that companionship is irrelevant here. We've got Cameron's testimony in Mr.Ferguson they spent alot of time together, talked alot). Its the basic human need for companionship. It just simply makes sense. All the events sofar in this present day could and can make a difference for (hopefully) the better of Future!John. Much like I noted in last night's chat, it was touching to hear Cameron showing concern for John, to not let him be alone after their 'somewhat planned' Riley phonecall (yet Cameron changed it a bit). Its good to have seen take his own initiative, and investigate Riley's body alone. John was not quick to pass judgement on Cameron who was being accused, sought out the answers for himself. Whether John's following his heart (and care for both Riley and Cameron) or just trusting his own hunches, John's slowly developing good leadership qualities there. Also - when Sarah had that talk with Cameron, regarding John's future, about him being alone, as well as Sarah making it known she's harbouring more animosity towards Cameron than she does for Skynet, yet Cameron is possibly John's best hope of not being alone comes J-Day, and should Sarah still end up dying from Cancer. Theres still Derek, I'm not counting him out either in this present time cycle, but the more friends and family John has with him to survive through J-Day, the better it will be. And I still think Sarah's being stubbornly short sighted here, smelting Cameron's spare parts. What if Cameron might need them yet? Could be crucial, and its not like they can find and pick off an extra metal if the need arises. Like I said in the chat: I think Sarah's just betting on that Cameron will get irreparably damaged, and Sarah will be happy to tell John "Well John, you'll have to pull her chip now" . That'd be the ultimate triumph for Sarah. TimStuff also brought up the old axiom about mothers not liking the point in which they're nolonger the most important female in their son's lives. And I think that has a major influence on Sarah's animosity towards Cameron, not just because she's a metal, but because she is a female for all intents and purposes (visual appearance, 'fully functional'). Were Cameron a male, posing as John's brother, there wouldn't be that element of motherly animosity. Yet we know J-Day is fate, its bound to happen. Cameron's got the best chances of surviving through J-Day at John's side, being there to help ensure his survivability. If Cameron would only share the harsh world post J-Day has become, perhaps Sarah would change her tune about Cameron.
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Post by littleb on Mar 14, 2009 17:18:56 GMT -5
I appreciate the effort here to try to convince me this was a great moment of redemption in a season-long progression of Derek's character, but I'm not seeing it at all. His over-the-top reaction to Jesse's comment about maybe some good can come from Riley's death felt like a major short-cut in his character and it's one of the things that ruined the episode for me (along with John being a total unlikeable ass for one episode too many now). The other problem with that scene is that Jesse was way too obvious. She's been so careful all along and now she's showing her cards rather obviously. It's just too convenient for my taste. Not sure about Derek in this one. I think there's a difference in his morals between matters related to either stopping J-Day or protecting John and something like Riley's death. I know Riley was a "problem", but she was a fixable one without needing to resort to murder. Sarah was already planning to move which would probably have put Riley out of the picture. A cold-blooded murder of someone he considered an "innocent" by his definition (i.e. not one that's going to end the world any time soon) I guess was a little extreme, even for Derek. Maybe we are supposed to have seen him maturing a little since he came across. He was more feral in S1; shoot first, ask questions never, which seemed to be his attitude regarding the two cops. He was plain reckless with the little girl in the alley but I never thought he intended her any harm. I think Jesse is losing it a little. She looked damn guilty throughout this one, and it was making her careless. I think that's why she resorted to playing the sex card, it's guaranteed to work and it took Derek away from asking any more awkward questions. Considering her demeanour in this ep, it wouldn't be too much of a leap for her to just cave in and confess everything. The other thing with Derek's reaction, I suspect, is a writer's ploy. I'm guessing he's going to find out about Jesse pretty soon. I'm guessing he's not going to be pleased. By giving him this strong a response to Riley's death, it just sets up the sh*t storm to follow. It didn't throw me out of the episode though; I don't think it was that massively OOC for him to be disturbed by the murder. I like Derek, I like to think that there's a shred of decency in him and, for me, it wasn't too great a leap to accept the writing for him in this one. Was Andy supposed to be one of his best friends? They shared a bit of screentime and a bit of joking but I never got the best friend vibe from them. Andy was different to Riley. For Derek, killing Andy was a massive link to getting rid of Skynet, and he's always been able to justify those kinds of murders. FutureJohn believes that he needs his mother so much that he used time travel to save her - he can't subscribe to the theory that he doesn't need her. Perhaps FutureJohn's not too happy himself with the way he's turned out and he's decided a bit more mom-time might turn the tide! It's that cuddly or wire monkey thing again - basic needs or comforter/nurturer? The scene with Kacey was a lovely, understated way of showing exactly how isolated Sarah is. Sarah's never allowed herself to have friends, "you never did come to dinner." Never allowed herself to get close to anyone because when she does, they die or their loved ones die. She knows she's not going to be keeping in touch with Kacey, knows that she can't have the normal life of farewell parties and BBQs. What she does have is John, and she is trying to give him some semblance of a normal life - school (didn't really work out), a girlfriend (oopsie), responsibility ( Heavy Metal, didn't really work out.) Every time she tries to "open her hands a little" it all goes horribly wrong, but they still have each other and she's kept trying to get it right "I'm working on it." Problem at the moment though, is that John is permanently butting heads with her and they've lost the emotional connection she treasures. Maybe this fact, coupled with Cameron's warning in that final scene with her, and one last straw in the form of something, anything going wrong in the next few eps, will see her reconsidering her role as his mother/protector...
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Mar 14, 2009 17:59:53 GMT -5
Schmacky:
While I agree that a commanding officer has to show himself to his troops the world of the future war make traveling around to his troops. Visiting other outposts and front lines and getting his face out there difficult at best.
One of the things that I've got coming up in my T6 is an argument between John and Kate. John wanting to be out on the battlefield and Kate saying that it's a risk that he can't afford to take. One shot could take John out, or gravely injure him.
A Machine doesn't care whether it's shot John Connor it just cares that it's taken out a human. Or badly injured a human.
In fact I'd posit that in the Future War the worst and most dangerous place to be for John would be on the battlefield or trying to go place to place visiting troops.
He would have to find another way to do it, and to boost morale.
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Mar 14, 2009 18:02:00 GMT -5
Schmacky: While I agree that a commanding officer has to show himself to his troops the world of the future war make traveling around to his troops. Visiting other outposts and front lines and getting his face out there difficult at best. One of the things that I've got coming up in my T6 is an argument between John and Kate. John wanting to be out on the battlefield and Kate saying that it's a risk that he can't afford to take. One shot could take John out, or gravely injure him. A Machine doesn't care whether it's shot John Connor it just cares that it's taken out a human. Or badly injured a human. In fact I'd posit that in the Future War the worst and most dangerous place to be for John would be on the battlefield or trying to go place to place visiting troops. He would have to find another way to do it, and to boost morale. Umm... I never said that John needs to go VISIT the troops or anything. He needs to let his troops know that he gives a damn. And if he doesn't talk to ANYBODY but metal.. well, that doesn't show his troops that he's got his head in the game.
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Mar 14, 2009 18:10:32 GMT -5
Well you see that's the point I highly DOUBT that he doesn't give out radio messages.
Or do something that way.
But since I thought at the time wer were assuming he doesn't talk to anyone the only other option would be to go to them.
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Post by aceplace57 on Mar 14, 2009 18:24:09 GMT -5
I'm surprised at John's detached reaction to Riley's death. He is only 16 and I kept waiting for a breakdown. A few tears, some genuine emotion. If he's this detached and stoic at 16 I shudder to think what he'll be like at 30.
It would have been nice seeing a montage of Riley's better moments. She did save John from Cromartie with her spooky Ninja scene. The trip to Mexico etc. Riley may be the closest John gets to a real gf.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 14, 2009 18:52:23 GMT -5
And I still think Sarah's being stubbornly short sighted here, smelting Cameron's spare parts. What if Cameron might need them yet? Could be crucial, and its not like they can find and pick off an extra metal if the need arises. Like I said in the chat: I think Sarah's just betting on that Cameron will get irreparably damaged, and Sarah will be happy to tell John "Well John, you'll have to pull her chip now" . That'd be the ultimate triumph for Sarah. Oh I don't. When there was an endo arm and partial chip left in the factory in T1, it got used to start developing the processor that would be come Skynet. When Vick's hand got left behind during Derek's jail break, it ended up in the hands of an FBI agent. Leaving Cromartie's body buried for even a day resulted in it getting stolen. Experience has shown Sarah that leaving any parts is dangerous. Sure, maybe they could be useful in repairing Cameron, but the risks outweigh the benefits. What would happen if they had to hit the road in a hurry, with no time to go back to the house and pack? Someone would eventually find those parts. She was being wise, not short-sighted.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 14, 2009 18:55:53 GMT -5
John can't and shouldn't be emotionally distant as a Commander. Troops want, and need, to know that their commander cares about them. If John is a recluse his entire adult life and only hangs around Cameron.. I don't see him ever really becoming this great leader. I just don't see how it would be possible. I'm in the military and all the commanders I've had.. I've liked them for different reasons but something they all have shared is this way of making you (the troop) feel like they really give a damn about you. Like, you matter to them. Commanders are like parents. I think a good one has a way of letting their troops know that you're under their wing and they'll take care of you even when you're in the office getting a lecture lashing of a lifetime or getting an award and a pat on the back... good and bad they care. And if there's a commander that doesn't have that quality, the troops below will follow the orders because that's their duty, but there will be no respect and the morale will go down and the mission will not be accomplished as effectively. John should never be like that. He should never be emotionally distant. If anything, he should be emotionally invested in every single soldier under his command.. and yeah that's a lot of one person to handle, but there's ways of dealing with that. I think if this show makes John Connor in the future out to be some lonely distant man who only talks to Cameron I will be so damn sad and that would just suck. They're implying it's happened with Jesse's timeline and maybe even Derek's but.. if that's what this Johnny turns out to be... blah. Future John being emotionally detached does not mean that he doesn't care. It just means that he can't let his emotions get in the way of doing what needs to be done. He probably cared a great deal for Kyle Reese but that didn't stop him from sending Kyle on a suicide mission. We also have to remember that John Connor is not just a military commander. He is the leader of the Resistance and the Resistance is not comparable to the U.S. military. They don't have any of the luxuries of the U.S. military. It's not like John Connor can just broadcast a speech for the everyone to see and hear live like the President of the United States. Chances are that his message will be carried by word of mouth and through recordings that get passed down from person to person. John Connor won't be covered by the press and he won't be able to meet many of the people fighting for him like our military leaders. It's not like he can give a speech to the graduating class at West Point on Monday and then talk to the troops at Camp Pendleton on Thursday. The Resistance doesn't have the infrastructure or resources needed for John Connor meet and speak to all the people fighting for him. People are going to fight and die for John Connor because of the myth and legend built around him and not because they've actually met him or have some direct connection with him. Only the people closest to John Connor are even going to know that he hangs around with Terminators. Everyone else only knows about the myth of John Connor.
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Mar 14, 2009 19:06:36 GMT -5
John can't and shouldn't be emotionally distant as a Commander. Troops want, and need, to know that their commander cares about them. If John is a recluse his entire adult life and only hangs around Cameron.. I don't see him ever really becoming this great leader. I just don't see how it would be possible. I'm in the military and all the commanders I've had.. I've liked them for different reasons but something they all have shared is this way of making you (the troop) feel like they really give a damn about you. Like, you matter to them. Commanders are like parents. I think a good one has a way of letting their troops know that you're under their wing and they'll take care of you even when you're in the office getting a lecture lashing of a lifetime or getting an award and a pat on the back... good and bad they care. And if there's a commander that doesn't have that quality, the troops below will follow the orders because that's their duty, but there will be no respect and the morale will go down and the mission will not be accomplished as effectively. John should never be like that. He should never be emotionally distant. If anything, he should be emotionally invested in every single soldier under his command.. and yeah that's a lot of one person to handle, but there's ways of dealing with that. I think if this show makes John Connor in the future out to be some lonely distant man who only talks to Cameron I will be so damn sad and that would just suck. They're implying it's happened with Jesse's timeline and maybe even Derek's but.. if that's what this Johnny turns out to be... blah. Future John being emotionally detached does not mean that he doesn't care. It just means that he can't let his emotions get in the way of doing what needs to be done. He probably cared a great deal for Kyle Reese but that didn't stop him from sending Kyle on a suicide mission. We also have to remember that John Connor is not just a military commander. He is the leader of the Resistance and the Resistance is not comparable to the U.S. military. They don't have any of the luxuries of the U.S. military. It's not like John Connor can just broadcast a speech for the everyone to see and hear live like the President of the United States. Chances are that his message will be carried by word of mouth and through recordings that get passed down from person to person. John Connor won't be covered by the press and he won't be able to meet many of the people fighting for him like our military leaders. It's not like he can give a speech to the graduating class at West Point on Monday and then talk to the troops at Camp Pendleton on Thursday. The Resistance doesn't have the infrastructure or resources needed for John Connor meet and speak to all the people fighting for him. People are going to fight and die for John Connor because of the myth and legend built around him and not because they've actually met him or have some direct connection with him. Only the people closest to John Connor are even going to know that he hangs around with Terminators. Everyone else only knows about the myth of John Connor. Again, I never said that John needs to go around and meet every soldier of the Resistance. I agree that his words will be passed on through people, his myth and whatnot will be passed around. But if the words are being passed around is that John Connor doesn't talk to anyone but metal.. that isn't going to bode well with the men in the trenches or the Lts commanding those troops (like Derek). The way they're portraying future John being alone and only talking to Cameron takes away from John's myth, not add to it.
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