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Post by VALIANT CHAMPION on Mar 14, 2009 23:57:07 GMT -5
That sub captain terminator looks like he has a pot belly. I suppose terminators come in all shapes and sizes though.
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schmacky
Major
"Make yourself useful."
Posts: 522
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Post by schmacky on Mar 15, 2009 0:06:12 GMT -5
He had the most calming voice. A good Term quality to have on a nuclear sub heh
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wb5
Private
Posts: 230
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Post by wb5 on Mar 15, 2009 8:20:05 GMT -5
What gets me is that Sarah and Derek both thought about killing Riley themselves a time or two. I don't think so. Sarah considered it once, in "ourselves alone", and right away rejected the idea. Derek barely gave Riley any attention at all, until the suicide attempt. After that, he merely said she was becoming a problem, which does not have to mean he was planning to kill her or have Sarah kill her. More likely, he would have wanted a way to get Riley out of John's life - by convincing John she was trouble, or by moving again, or whatever. I don't think he was ever planning on just shooting her, though. Nor was it his intention that John should have let her bleed to death;only that John shouldn't have involved strangers, which led to attention from the authorities. Most of the John Henry story line was in a creepy way very funny: Ellison freaked out by the still covered T1001 mother Weaver and her childish growing up robot boy John Henry playing funny games. It might all be a little bit stupid, but I found it very funny and entertaining. There has been also a funny John-Cameron scene, when they both tried to cover their secret in the garage and Sarah came in: Two stupid children trying to look innocent. I liked those scenes, too. I Have ongoing problems with how the Sarah Connor character is handled. We learned that she has considered killing Cameron but for what reason? For the Skynet in Cameron? For the horror around her? It seemed that her reasoning is selfish. Is she more concerned with her son and mankind or more with her own role in the game? Why wasn't there more conflict between Sarah and Cameron in previous episodes outside of Sarah's dreams? Sarah has had good reason to be upset by Cameron in the past, but almost nothing happened. I would have preferred if the writers would have worked out more the Skynet inside Cameron and the horror around her. I think there was plenty of conflict between Cameron and Sarah before this episode. Starting already way back in the pilot, and a number of incidents made it much worse: the murder of Enrique, her turning on the Connors due to chip damage (still not fixed fully), her weird behaviour in the nuclear power plant (where Sarah felt threatened enough to raise her gun at her) and the murder of the guys in the bowling alley. Sarah also knows (from Cromartie) that Cameron made mistakes which put Cromartie on John's trail. On top of that, as has been emphasised lately by the Sarah-centric episodes, she is very worried over the influence Cameron has on John, and the relationship that they have (or that she thinks they have). Moreover, Cameron is unique in that she is a self-directed Terminator living with humans - she may be (ostensibly) on the "good" side, but unlike ever-reliable "uncle Bob" she only takes orders when it suits her, and she lies, hides things, does not always divulge information she has, and Sarah is often afraid she will go on a murder rampage like with the bowling guys (she was similarly afraid for Andy Goode and Riley, though ironically neither were killed by Cameron). Sarah is living with a Terminator who has her own agenda, and this is a big problem for her. So, I think Sarah seriously considering killing Cameron is entirely consistent with her character and experiences. As is John defending her toward others, as he has always done. Sarah has many good reasons (from her POV) to want to get rid of Cameron, allthough she is a very useful ally. I think trust is so low now that Sarah feels that usefullness no longer outweighs the continued fear of living with a Terminator who can "go bad" at any moment, and behaves creepily enough without going bad. But she understands John wouldn't like it all if she did anything to Cameron. How come the writers show us what really happens, then leave the main characters in the dark? In terms of suspense thats completely backward. Letting the audience know what happens, but not the (main) characters, is actually a storytelling device that is used often in fiction (books, TV, movies,...). And it's often effective, as it is in this case - it creates suspense as the audience wants the main characters to find out what happened and not draw the wrong conclusions. So, it was a relief for many when John clearly noticed the nature of the wounds inflicted on Riley.
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Post by littleb on Mar 15, 2009 11:58:16 GMT -5
Not sure about Derek in this one. I think there's a difference in his morals between matters related to either stopping J-Day or protecting John and something like Riley's death. <snippety snip> He was plain reckless with the little girl in the alley but I never thought he intended her any harm. They played that scene very well at the time, finding the balance between him using a small child as a pawn and having him actually be very sweet with her. It was still a horrible and dangerous thing to do, but at least he did it nicely I think they may have layed it on a little thick, but at the end of the day, he's fighting to save all of humanity so he must value it. Maybe it's no accident that the same writers of this one, penned his speech to the gung-ho soldier dude in Goodbye to All That. That - again, layed on a little thick and not one of my fave scenes - gave an insight into Derek that was quite telling. Derek's hard and hardened by everything he's survived but occasionally you get this glimpse that he's not a complete bastard; bare toes in the grass, the story about the deer and Kyle, taking John to see his father. For all his faults and all his callous determination to win his war, he's got a decent heart. That was quite clinical, wasn't it? I guess desperate times and all that, but it does jar with her being all emotional and making mistakes. There was a sense that she was running on raw energy though. She went to the bar, got into the fight but didn't think it through and ended up fighting way too many and getting arrested - not the best of plans when Derek is wanted for murder. She made a couple of slip-ups with Derek and eventually had to resort to her basest weapon - sex to get out of Dodge. Maybe she's just not the brightest tool in the box, cos her plan with Cameron was kinda crap really. Fair enough. I wasn't around here when that one aired. I never really picked up on them being bosom buddies; friends and comrades maybe but it just didn't strike me as anything more significant. I guess I just hope there's more to it than the fact that Sarah knows how to fight. He's surrounded by fighters, I would hope he considers that Sarah brings more to his life than just that. But then, he treats her like crap most of the time so maybe not! I like the hints that he's possibly a bit of a git. That people are unhappy with his leadership. In his own timeline, Derek doesn't seem to like him much; John sends Kyle away from him, there's the secret project that no one knows anything about and missions people don't return from, metal going mad in bunkers (bonkers in bunkers?!) Maybe it's true; to be a great leader, you can't have friends. I know. They certainly seem to be laying plot and thematic groundwork in a definite direction. Out of the three options though... let's just say it's a relief that Riley is already dead! He did actually do some good work in this, boy did show some initiative. Speaking like he did to Sarah though... boy also needs a good smack. Fact of the matter is, Sarah was absolutely dead on the money about Riley. "Lot of bullets fly around here... someone will." Someone did and Riley's dead. Guess John should've bought Riley a flack jacket, not a bike helmet. This is when he should be listening to his mother, why send her back if he's going to be an idiot and ignore any and all of her advice? Fine, he had issues after Sarkissian and he went off on one for a while, but I thought he'd got past that and shaken himself out of his stompy-emo funk. "You don't know anything!" My arse. A little bit of humility would make him less of an idiot but he's on the defensive or the out-right attack with Sarah all the time and it's making him unpleasant.
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Post by samuel95 on Mar 15, 2009 12:19:01 GMT -5
Angry, emo, humility-impaired, head-butting, bad judgment (Mexico?), defiance of those that mean the most to him, and occasional glimmers of responsibility and initiative -- makes it look the writers know something about teenagers.
Adolescence is about developing identity and judgment. It might be a little harder if everyone you trust expects you to lead the world soon, all the while living as a fugitive battling scary killer robots from the future. Having a smokin' hot pet/guard robot makes up for it a little though.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 15, 2009 16:45:47 GMT -5
Does anyone else think that it's kind of funny how Cameron has kept so many Terminator parts for repair even though none of the Terminators they've destroyed were the same size as her? If she ever needs to replace a part, she'll end up with one hand bigger than the other or legs that are disproportional to her torso.
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terrasj
Sergeant
Rossbond Connor Crew
Posts: 445
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Post by terrasj on Mar 15, 2009 18:20:50 GMT -5
Does anyone else think that it's kind of funny how Cameron has kept so many Terminator parts for repair even though none of the Terminators they've destroyed were the same size as her? If she ever needs to replace a part, she'll end up with one hand bigger than the other or legs that are disproportional to her torso. True, though there's got to be some level of standardization for internal parts - ligament rods, servo motors, etc. Parts within that arm and hand piece contains parts she could still use, all the better to keep that unit assembled then broken apart, where the rods and stuff could get warped or bent if shuffled in the box of other loose parts. Actually, the more I think about it now: For all we know, some or most of those parts are also from the Victoria / Rosey terminator who was petite and of Cameron's size. Looking back in retrospect, we didn't see or know about it at the time that Cameron's hoarding some parts.
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Post by aceplace57 on Mar 16, 2009 18:51:05 GMT -5
Does anyone else think that it's kind of funny how Cameron has kept so many Terminator parts for repair even though none of the Terminators they've destroyed were the same size as her? If she ever needs to replace a part, she'll end up with one hand bigger than the other or legs that are disproportional to her torso. It's more than spare parts. ;D Cameron made a point to put a red ribbon in the box. I think it's a memorial. Cameron looked distressed when she returned and saw Sarah burning everything. I get the impression Cameron is aware that she's destroyed other Terminators. For her, it comes close to regret or grief. She doesn't have feelings, but she always reacts after destroying another Term.
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on Mar 16, 2009 21:37:03 GMT -5
It's more than spare parts. ;D Cameron made a point to put a red ribbon in the box. Actually, it looked to me like Cameron hid the stuff in a box of Christmas decorations.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 16, 2009 22:08:58 GMT -5
They are obviously more than just spare parts because as I mentioned, none of the Terminators they destroyed are the same size as Cameron. Sure, there may be some parts are the right size or can be modified to be the right size but those are going to be small pieces and Cameron kept a hand. There's no way a piece that big can be used by Cameron, not even if it was the contortionist Terminator's hand since she was smaller and had shorter arms than Cameron.
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Post by VALIANT CHAMPION on Mar 16, 2009 22:40:33 GMT -5
If you recall when Cameron told Sarah they were spare parts. Sarah then said that John survival was important and not hers. Cameron than seemed to suggest the spare parts were for beneficial for John.
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terrasj
Sergeant
Rossbond Connor Crew
Posts: 445
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Post by terrasj on Mar 17, 2009 0:25:42 GMT -5
It's more than spare parts. ;D Cameron made a point to put a red ribbon in the box. Actually, it looked to me like Cameron hid the stuff in a box of Christmas decorations. If you recall when Cameron told Sarah they were spare parts. Sarah then said that John survival was important and not hers. Cameron than seemed to suggest the spare parts were for beneficial for John. Spare parts, with a red ribbon, and beneficial for John's purpose... What, was she's saving them for a later date to hand as Christmas tree ornaments to boost John's moral some point past J-Day? I'm just joking here Still, on a more serious note, there was a variety of parts there, the arm being the exception. I'm gathering leg servos and hydraulic cylinder hoists also in the mix, maybe even some chest components. Anything that Cameron had purposely put away for saving later, would've been for good reason. Common or specific parts that she figures might need replacing at some point in time.
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Post by Andrew Goode on Mar 17, 2009 7:05:42 GMT -5
What gets me is that Sarah and Derek both thought about killing Riley themselves a time or two. I don't think so. Sarah considered it once, in "ourselves alone", and right away rejected the idea. Derek barely gave Riley any attention at all, until the suicide attempt. After that, he merely said she was becoming a problem, which does not have to mean he was planning to kill her or have Sarah kill her. More likely, he would have wanted a way to get Riley out of John's life - by convincing John she was trouble, or by moving again, or whatever. I don't think he was ever planning on just shooting her, though. Nor was it his intention that John should have let her bleed to death;only that John shouldn't have involved strangers, which led to attention from the authorities. I liked those scenes, too. I think there was plenty of conflict between Cameron and Sarah before this episode. Starting already way back in the pilot, and a number of incidents made it much worse: the murder of Enrique, her turning on the Connors due to chip damage (still not fixed fully), her weird behaviour in the nuclear power plant (where Sarah felt threatened enough to raise her gun at her) and the murder of the guys in the bowling alley. Sarah also knows (from Cromartie) that Cameron made mistakes which put Cromartie on John's trail. On top of that, as has been emphasised lately by the Sarah-centric episodes, she is very worried over the influence Cameron has on John, and the relationship that they have (or that she thinks they have). Moreover, Cameron is unique in that she is a self-directed Terminator living with humans - she may be (ostensibly) on the "good" side, but unlike ever-reliable "uncle Bob" she only takes orders when it suits her, and she lies, hides things, does not always divulge information she has, and Sarah is often afraid she will go on a murder rampage like with the bowling guys (she was similarly afraid for Andy Goode and Riley, though ironically neither were killed by Cameron). Sarah is living with a Terminator who has her own agenda, and this is a big problem for her. So, I think Sarah seriously considering killing Cameron is entirely consistent with her character and experiences. As is John defending her toward others, as he has always done. Sarah has many good reasons (from her POV) to want to get rid of Cameron, allthough she is a very useful ally. I think trust is so low now that Sarah feels that usefullness no longer outweighs the continued fear of living with a Terminator who can "go bad" at any moment, and behaves creepily enough without going bad. But she understands John wouldn't like it all if she did anything to Cameron. How come the writers show us what really happens, then leave the main characters in the dark? In terms of suspense thats completely backward. Letting the audience know what happens, but not the (main) characters, is actually a storytelling device that is used often in fiction (books, TV, movies,...). And it's often effective, as it is in this case - it creates suspense as the audience wants the main characters to find out what happened and not draw the wrong conclusions. So, it was a relief for many when John clearly noticed the nature of the wounds inflicted on Riley. Great post. Pretty much sums up my thoughts and feelings on the last few episodes.
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Post by gothamite66 on Mar 17, 2009 14:12:24 GMT -5
A new preview has been posted at the Production Blog. Interesting, very interesting. Oops, wrong part. Posting in the part 2 thread.
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Post by Forte21x on Mar 17, 2009 20:15:53 GMT -5
I hope I'm not beating a dead horse here. Damn work keeps interfering with my fandoms.
I liked the tension in the confrontation b/w Sarah and Cameron. But it made me wonder about both of them.
Sarah's remark about John's quality of life is something you'd expect from a mother but I thought Sarah was more accepting of John not living a real life by now. I still recall the S1 finale where Sarah tells John stopping judgment day is their mission, not their life. Really? Isn't that what John was born for? I know it's a bit depressing. But they alluded to this when Riley first showed up. John asked when he'd ever get to live his life.
And I wonder if Cameron's view of John isn't entirely accurate either. It seems like her view of Future John is limited to him in 2027. I'd expect John to change over the course of the war. And I don't mean just J-day to the first 3 years. Wouldn't John at the 5, 10, and 15 year mark change? They guy who is first rescuing survivors who don't know who the hell he is won't be same as the legendary John Connor. Right?
On another note: Derek's response to Riley's death really surprised me. When she slit her wrists didn't he criticize John for taking her to a hospital? It was just a little too much.
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