wb5
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Posts: 230
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Post by wb5 on Mar 14, 2009 19:22:27 GMT -5
Not sure about Derek in this one. I think there's a difference in his morals between matters related to either stopping J-Day or protecting John and something like Riley's death. I know Riley was a "problem", but she was a fixable one without needing to resort to murder. Regarding Andy, it seems to me that future Andy Goode ('Billy Wisher', or what was his false name) encouraged him to kill his younger self. He did nod to Derek when Derek left on his mission. John was not quick to pass judgement on Cameron who was being accused, sought out the answers for himself. Whether John's following his heart (and care for both Riley and Cameron) or just trusting his own hunches, John's slowly developing good leadership qualities there. And in the episode before this one, he was attempting to protect both Riley (from Sarah and especially from Cameron) and Cameron (not telling about the parts and her glitches). Which is why I don't think John is acting like an ass. He seems to genuinely care for all those around him, and he does not leap to conclusions. He may have had a difficult period in which he was quite nasty to Sarah, but that appears to be over now. Yet we know J-Day is fate, its bound to happen. Is it? Sarah in T2 did not believe this. "No fate but what we make". In my opinion, post-judgment day struggle is a rearguard action only. They have already lost, and lost badly, the moment the nukes fall. Defeating Skynet only means both sides lose badly. Avoiding judgment day alltogether, is the only way to win. And who knows, I'm still not sure Weaver's motives and JH are entirely malicious.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 14, 2009 19:33:39 GMT -5
I appreciate the effort here to try to convince me this was a great moment of redemption in a season-long progression of Derek's character, but I'm not seeing it at all. His over-the-top reaction to Jesse's comment about maybe some good can come from Riley's death felt like a major short-cut in his character and it's one of the things that ruined the episode for me (along with John being a total unlikeable ass for one episode too many now). The other problem with that scene is that Jesse was way too obvious. She's been so careful all along and now she's showing her cards rather obviously. It's just too convenient for my taste. Not sure about Derek in this one. I think there's a difference in his morals between matters related to either stopping J-Day or protecting John and something like Riley's death. I know Riley was a "problem", but she was a fixable one without needing to resort to murder. Sarah was already planning to move which would probably have put Riley out of the picture. A cold-blooded murder of someone he considered an "innocent" by his definition (i.e. not one that's going to end the world any time soon) I guess was a little extreme, even for Derek. Maybe we are supposed to have seen him maturing a little since he came across. He was more feral in S1; shoot first, ask questions never, which seemed to be his attitude regarding the two cops. He was plain reckless with the little girl in the alley but I never thought he intended her any harm. No, I don't think Derek intended the little girl harm, either. But he took her into a very dangerous situation. There was a very clear risk that she could have been injured or killed if things didn't work out as well as they did. But the point I was trying to make is that this has been an on-going issue with Derek, and one I don't feel he's made much if any progress on. So the distinct jump from his past actions into this new view of human life being valuable doesn't sit well with me. Had this been a moment where he started to see things differently, that would have worked great. But for him to have such a strong stance felt false. I think Jesse is losing it a little. She looked damn guilty throughout this one, and it was making her careless. I think that's why she resorted to playing the sex card, it's guaranteed to work and it took Derek away from asking any more awkward questions. Considering her demeanour in this ep, it wouldn't be too much of a leap for her to just cave in and confess everything. The other thing with Derek's reaction, I suspect, is a writer's ploy. I'm guessing he's going to find out about Jesse pretty soon. I'm guessing he's not going to be pleased. By giving him this strong a response to Riley's death, it just sets up the sh*t storm to follow. It didn't throw me out of the episode though; I don't think it was that massively OOC for him to be disturbed by the murder. I like Derek, I like to think that there's a shred of decency in him and, for me, it wasn't too great a leap to accept the writing for him in this one. Actually both of those things felt forced to me. I could see Jesse slipping up like that if she'd been shaken up about killing Riley and her plan not working out the way she'd intended. But she had the clarity to go to a bar and start a fight to cover for her appearance and standing up Derek on his nab-the-lawyer plan. I think that established quite well that she was still thinking straight. One slip-up would have been okay: When Derek was fixing her hand and he realized she'd thought a lot about this type of situation (John would have to make a decision about killing Cameron). I liked that a lot. It wasn't obvious, but it was just enough to give Derek a reason to think beyond the moment. She was way too obvious about something good coming from Riley's death, though, just like Derek was over-the-top reaction. Was Andy supposed to be one of his best friends? They shared a bit of screentime and a bit of joking but I never got the best friend vibe from them. Andy was different to Riley. For Derek, killing Andy was a massive link to getting rid of Skynet, and he's always been able to justify those kinds of murders. I thought the scene in the D&D where they were ragging on Kyle implied they were at least long-time / good friends. But I'm pretty sure The Turk mentioned one time on here that Andy was one of Derek's best friends. FutureJohn believes that he needs his mother so much that he used time travel to save her - he can't subscribe to the theory that he doesn't need her. Perhaps FutureJohn's not too happy himself with the way he's turned out and he's decided a bit more mom-time might turn the tide! It's that cuddly or wire monkey thing again - basic needs or comforter/nurturer? But if we believe what Cameron told Sarah in Gnothi Seauton, future!John wanted Sarah in 2007 to fight Skynet because she's "the best fighter". Even if future!John wished his mom had been around longer, I can't imagine he would think to have her jumped over her death because he thought it would make himself turn out a better person. He most likely sees himself as the tough isolated leader he think he needs to be. But future war is bad and I think we have to attribute that at least in part to who future!John is. One of my favorite things about this show is that we don't ever get a clear glimpse of what future!John is like because part of the journey of this series is how John grows into being the man the Kyle Reese would die for, being the man people would follow all over hell, being the man that brings the human race back from the brink. The idea that he doesn't turn out so well in other timelines only adds to the drama of this timeline. And I like that a lot... There future's not set. There is no fate but what we make. Despite John Connor having a destiny, the future is wide open and anything can happen. The scene with Kacey was a lovely, understated way of showing exactly how isolated Sarah is. Sarah's never allowed herself to have friends, "you never did come to dinner." Never allowed herself to get close to anyone because when she does, they die or their loved ones die. She knows she's not going to be keeping in touch with Kacey, knows that she can't have the normal life of farewell parties and BBQs. What she does have is John, and she is trying to give him some semblance of a normal life - school (didn't really work out), a girlfriend (oopsie), responsibility ( Heavy Metal, didn't really work out.) Every time she tries to "open her hands a little" it all goes horribly wrong, but they still have each other and she's kept trying to get it right "I'm working on it." Problem at the moment though, is that John is permanently butting heads with her and they've lost the emotional connection she treasures. Maybe this fact, coupled with Cameron's warning in that final scene with her, and one last straw in the form of something, anything going wrong in the next few eps, will see her reconsidering her role as his mother/protector... Yeah, that scene with Sarah and Cameron has me very worried now about how this season is going to end (especially knowing the spoilers Thomas put out there). If I knew for sure we were going to get a 3rd season, I would feel a lot better about it. But with that up in the air, I'm scared about where this story is heading. As for head-butting - that's mostly what I was referring to about John being an ass (though I think he's pretty much that way to everyone). I seriously can't take much more of it. He's gone from emo to angry young man to prick. His story was fine — seeing him come up with a way to slow down the identification of Riley's body and seeing him (I think) realize that she wasn't killed by Cameron. But it's really hard for me to cheer anything he does since I've grown to loathe him so much.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 14, 2009 19:46:10 GMT -5
Future John being emotionally detached does not mean that he doesn't care. It just means that he can't let his emotions get in the way of doing what needs to be done. He probably cared a great deal for Kyle Reese but that didn't stop him from sending Kyle on a suicide mission. We also have to remember that John Connor is not just a military commander. He is the leader of the Resistance and the Resistance is not comparable to the U.S. military. They don't have any of the luxuries of the U.S. military. It's not like John Connor can just broadcast a speech for the everyone to see and hear live like the President of the United States. Chances are that his message will be carried by word of mouth and through recordings that get passed down from person to person. John Connor won't be covered by the press and he won't be able to meet many of the people fighting for him like our military leaders. It's not like he can give a speech to the graduating class at West Point on Monday and then talk to the troops at Camp Pendleton on Thursday. The Resistance doesn't have the infrastructure or resources needed for John Connor meet and speak to all the people fighting for him. People are going to fight and die for John Connor because of the myth and legend built around him and not because they've actually met him or have some direct connection with him. Only the people closest to John Connor are even going to know that he hangs around with Terminators. Everyone else only knows about the myth of John Connor. Again, I never said that John needs to go around and meet every soldier of the Resistance. I agree that his words will be passed on through people, his myth and whatnot will be passed around. But if the words are being passed around is that John Connor doesn't talk to anyone but metal.. that isn't going to bode well with the men in the trenches or the Lts commanding those troops (like Derek). The way they're portraying future John being alone and only talking to Cameron takes away from John's myth, not add to it. But that's not the word that will be passed around because that's not what's important. Only the small number of people close to John Connor will even know about him hanging around reprogrammed Terminators. What the majority of the people will know about John Connor is going to be his numerous victories against the machines. John Connor will be known as the man who brought the human race back from the brink, who took the fight to the machines and taught the people how to "smash those metal motherfrakers into junk." The fact that John Connor only talks to metal will not hurt the myth because as long as he he can effectively fight the machines, the people will create their own myths about him. That's why working with reprogrammed Terminators may not actually be a choice. The morale of his lieutenants is important but winning the war is even more important. If working with reprogrammed Terminators allows the Resistance to fight the machines more effectively and achieve more victories then that's what John Connor will do even if it means sacrificing the morale of those close to him. Because as long as he's winning the war, then the people who are out there, the 99.9% of the population that don't know that John Connor hangs around with metal, will continue to believe in the myth and fight for John Connor.
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schmacky
Major
"Make yourself useful."
Posts: 522
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Post by schmacky on Mar 14, 2009 19:59:52 GMT -5
But that's not the word that will be passed around because that's not what's important. Only the small number of people close to John Connor will even know about him hanging around reprogrammed Terminators. What the majority of the people will know about John Connor is going to be his numerous victories against the machines. John Connor will be known as the man who brought the human race back from the brink, who took the fight to the machines and taught the people how to "smash those metal motherfrakers into junk." The fact that John Connor only talks to metal will not hurt the myth because as long as he he can effectively fight the machines, the people will create their own myths about him. That's why working with reprogrammed Terminators may not actually be a choice. The morale of his lieutenants is important but winning the war is even more important. If working with reprogrammed Terminators allows the Resistance to fight the machines more effectively and achieve more victories then that's what John Connor will do even if it means sacrificing the morale of those close to him. Because as long as he's winning the war, then the people who are out there, the 99.9% of the population that don't know that John Connor hangs around with metal, will continue to believe in the myth and fight for John Connor. Really? Then what's Jesse all about? What's with Deets saying "That little metal bitch that always follows Connor around." Why does a Lt that is stationed on a sub know about Connor and his pet metal? I don't think that's an isolated case...
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Post by VALIANT CHAMPION on Mar 14, 2009 20:04:51 GMT -5
What gets me is that Sarah and Derek both thought about killing Riley themselves a time or two. Even if Cameron had killed her how could they not be the hypocrites?
Which Sarah never personally hated Riley, nor was she ever angry enough at her to think about killing her. When she was about to go outside with the pistol to kill Riley it was a matter of Connor business and nothing personal. Her strong emotions prevented her from shooting Riley however because she and everyone else had grown to care about Riley. Even Cameron knew there was a line there she could not cross with Riley. But her opinion that they should have killed her was simply out loud what Sarah and Derek had been considering all along.
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Post by nordwest on Mar 14, 2009 20:10:37 GMT -5
This has been another dark and very sad episode with the ongoing John and his women main story line. I like it dark, but I am not sure, if this may attract a big viewership. There also has been some fun scenes, though. Most of the John Henry story line was in a creepy way very funny: Ellison freaked out by the still covered T1001 mother Weaver and her childish growing up robot boy John Henry playing funny games. It might all be a little bit stupid, but I found it very funny and entertaining. There has been also a funny John-Cameron scene, when they both tried to cover their secret in the garage and Sarah came in: Two stupid children trying to look innocent. It does not need a Sarah Connor to become suspicious. I found also the Kacy character very cool.
I am already for quite some time annoyed by Derek only being useful as Jesse's sex partner. Fortunately this will soon find its end. Derek shows us what John is still very far away from and this being a hormone driven boy.
I am not sure if the submarine plot line is a good idea. The submarine set has been only used for a very short time but might have been expensive. Is Josh Friedman investing the money he got for the right stuff? Of course the set still has had only TV show standard and looked a bit stupid.
The John Cameron interaction has changed since "Ourselves Alone". In that episode Cameron did cut her wrist - following Riley - and invited John almost to work on her endoskeleton by leaving the garage door open, tried to be nice to him by offering a sandwich and finally proved her devotion by providing John the kill switch. I think, that we can take this as a prove for Cameron trusting John again. Her "You can't be trusted anymore" in "Automatic for the people" is no longer valid. John was fighting with himself whether he should trust her too. He needed a prove and was relieved in a very creepy but also beautiful scene with his dead girlfriend Riley. After checking her wounds and especially her hand he knows that she has been in a fight with a human of almost equal strength and no killing machine and that this human must have some visible deep scrapes.
John understands, that Cameron tries to manipulate him. Therefore he made the "don't play games with me" comment. Almost to the end of the episode we see Cameron again playing with John while speaking over the phone with Riley voice to him and freaking him out. I think that we should not put to much into this. I take this more as the writers playing with the viewers and throwing another bone to the Jameron shippers. They should not do this too often and should not use Cameron's mimicry as a continuous plot device.
I Have ongoing problems with how the Sarah Connor character is handled. We learned that she has considered killing Cameron but for what reason? For the Skynet in Cameron? For the horror around her? It seemed that her reasoning is selfish. Is she more concerned with her son and mankind or more with her own role in the game? Why wasn't there more conflict between Sarah and Cameron in previous episodes outside of Sarah's dreams? Sarah has had good reason to be upset by Cameron in the past, but almost nothing happened. I would have preferred if the writers would have worked out more the Skynet inside Cameron and the horror around her.
I always found the T1 Sarah boring but there is at least something I always thought has been pretty cool: The T1 Sarah has had a reptile as a pet. She freaked out her roommate by kissing her reptile. Isn't being nice to a robot girl so much different?
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Post by samuel95 on Mar 14, 2009 20:15:36 GMT -5
Have to jump in on the whole lonely John of the future concept. Historically the best leaders have risked themselves to connect with their troops. Think of Alexander getting his helmet split by the Persians in their first major battle or of Stonewall Jackson's death by battle wounds. As a combat vet myself I think it's because of the culture of mutual sacrifice. In combat I was genuinely more afraid of failing my comrades than of death itself, and repeated cross-cultural studies show that it's necessary for victory. Great leaders connect with the troops in person, always have. Even the bad ones try -- think of W in Bagdad for Christmas.
That doesn't mean they have any friends. The commonality, proximity and reciprocity necessary for friendship is missing from their lives by the nature of the job. Historically we find out more about past leaders from their diaries, memoirs and letters to their wives than we do with the people serving right next to them.
I applaud the writers for recognizing that a fictionalized leader of post-apocolypse humanity would be connected to those around him (including a loyal inner circle), but alone at the same time. Maybe that's what Cameron has been saying.
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Post by VALIANT CHAMPION on Mar 14, 2009 20:25:26 GMT -5
Maybe we are just too picky these days. I mean there is a lot more cohesion and plot in today's TV shows than when "The Duke Boys" were on television.
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terrasj
Sergeant
Rossbond Connor Crew
Posts: 445
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Post by terrasj on Mar 14, 2009 20:35:28 GMT -5
Oh I don't. When there was an endo arm and partial chip left in the factory in T1, it got used to start developing the processor that would be come Skynet. When Vick's hand got left behind during Derek's jail break, it ended up in the hands of an FBI agent. Leaving Cromartie's body buried for even a day resulted in it getting stolen. Experience has shown Sarah that leaving any parts is dangerous. Sure, maybe they could be useful in repairing Cameron, but the risks outweigh the benefits. True, there is that drive to dispose any and all future components to reduce the risk of skynet ever becoming realized again. Yet at the same time theres 3 other arguments here: 1. The very original timeline (Before T1), before J-Day's very first occurance, Sarah had to become pregnant and give birth to John by some male. Also, someone had to be a genius and develop the computer software that would become SkyNet. It just means that since J-Day has become fate, nomatter how thorough of destroying the future tech, some catalyst will up and become SkyNet, as TSCC is exampling. 2. Fine, Sarah's disposing Cameron's spare parts before they can rule out they'll never need them. Sarah's thinking she's doing the right preventative measure, but the Connors already lost the Turk, as well as made a bad decision to bury Cromartie's body in Mexico (with Elison around) instead of smelting it with thermite or bringing the endo back with them. Worst case, someone runs home for the thermite and returns so they can properly dispose of it. Cromartie's chip is demolished, but the body's now become the Turk entity known as John Henry. Preventing J-Day is way out of Sarah's hands now to stop it. Keeping or disposing Cameron's spare parts is practically just like spitting into an empty 5 gallon bucket. 3. SkyNet tech is already being researched, prototyped and developed, as the whole Connor clan experienced at the end of Desert Cantos with the Proto-AHK flying our of the lagoon. Preventing SkyNet from happening is immediately more complicated now, its become a mountain out of a mole hill. To support your standpoint and answer your question: Yes, your right, the spare parts is a bit of baggage that might be inconvenient to carry out on an emergency "duck & run". Sarah is doing what she knows best, dispose of the parts now instead of leaving it for later rather than risk those parts growing legs and walking away. And yes, even if the Connors eventually managed to track down every endoskeleton, Proto-AHK, R&D lab, and blew it all to kingdom come, Sarah's gut feeling would be J-Day could still happen because they left Cameron's spare parts to chance and dispose of later. In which they already made a bad mistake with Cromartie's body. One might equate that to common household chores - make pancakes, then clean up the mess right after than leave it / postpone doing it later. The true wisest move would've been to make a couple emergency stashes off-site, much like Sarah had stockpiled an underground reserve of munitions out in the desert (T2). Just in case Cameron does need some spare parts at some point. Plan ahead, prepare for a certain eventuality aka J-Day is just good hindsight. All in all, I just think Cameron's still more an asset than a liability right now. Strength in numbers.
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Post by samuel95 on Mar 14, 2009 20:43:07 GMT -5
'cept Daisy. Nothing wrong with Daisy.
Picky: What's wrong with the team leader? What kind of team leader proves to his troops that he doubts their competence by taking point himself? He should be in the middle thinking for them all, directing their actions, not taking point and jeopardizing the mission by trying to do too much.
Not so picky: I liked the way the team leader sent his team to safety and faced the metal himself, very good job.
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Post by stealthgear on Mar 14, 2009 21:11:15 GMT -5
How come the writers show us what really happens, then leave the main characters in the dark? In terms of suspense thats completely backward. "Riley's Dead" Duh. Been happening every episode this season. Theres no mystery. The tone of the show has gone too, and theres no vehicle action, chase scenes, and no funny cameron even.
I also think that little girl has the best acting skills on the show. I'm still depressed about Riley I think. I don't see how this can go on anymore without her or a replacement. Even in Smallville they don't kill off the girlfriend of Clark. There better be a huge point to killing Riley coming up. I know they are supposed to be giving John a sense of loss, but cmon its just a show. Thats lame! Its not good enough. The girl at school was already killed and he failed. They don't need to keep doing it. John already had that thing where he cut off his hair remember? He's the man. You can't keep doing this over and over to him.
So far my favourite characters have been ones that the writers disposed of without conscience. The Neighbor, The Latina, Riley, Weaver's girl, Silberman and others from season one. I mean season one and parts of s2 have been a real treat and very close to being terminator. Season 2 seems to drag on forever....
Theres no teamwork on the show. Theres no suspense. No action. Just drama. Its not even scifi half the time.
I don't understand. I don't relate with this type of plot. I also am not deriving any form of meaning from the plot for my real life. (Something they were getting good at during the end of season one).
You have to ask yourself why your watching and where its all going, otherwise your just in a braindead fandom cult, seduced by actors on the screen.
This show needs to shape up in the writing department badly.
I'm NOT being picky. Compentent storytelling is not a hard job. All the actors, photography, sound, music, everything is soooo good. Its just the stories are becoming awful. I don't know how they can have such high production values and not have good/basic storytelling.
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rossbondreturns
Corporal
Summer 08 Wallpaper Challenge Winner!
Posts: 1,617
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Post by rossbondreturns on Mar 14, 2009 22:15:04 GMT -5
Stealthgear:
All I can say is I am almost 100 percent the opposite of you.
Sorry I get great stuff from this show weekly including life lessons.
The writing is deep and IMHO some of the best on T.V.
*Shrugs*
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Post by Andrew Goode on Mar 14, 2009 22:49:05 GMT -5
Stealthgear: All I can say is I am almost 100 percent the opposite of you. Sorry I get great stuff from this show weekly including life lessons. The writing is deep and IMHO some of the best on T.V. *Shrugs* Your not alone Ross. Was I the only one who could tell what was real and what wasn't real in Episode 16 when Sarah was kidnapped and drugged up by Winston? I thought it was alright - interesting in a way. What drew me to the show was the story and the mother/son relationship. I think this is the greatest show I've ever felt drawn to and the writing is deep. I think you learn a lot of life lessons from this show, wither you may agree with them to a certain point of view. *shrugs*
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Post by allergygal on Mar 14, 2009 23:20:12 GMT -5
^ I'll second that. Stealthgear: All I can say is I am almost 100 percent the opposite of you. Sorry I get great stuff from this show weekly including life lessons. The writing is deep and IMHO some of the best on T.V. *Shrugs* I couldn't agree more, Ross. While this one may not have been an overall favorite of mine, I can always find something to love about every episode. It's an incredibly well-written show.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 14, 2009 23:52:29 GMT -5
But that's not the word that will be passed around because that's not what's important. Only the small number of people close to John Connor will even know about him hanging around reprogrammed Terminators. What the majority of the people will know about John Connor is going to be his numerous victories against the machines. John Connor will be known as the man who brought the human race back from the brink, who took the fight to the machines and taught the people how to "smash those metal motherfrakers into junk." The fact that John Connor only talks to metal will not hurt the myth because as long as he he can effectively fight the machines, the people will create their own myths about him. That's why working with reprogrammed Terminators may not actually be a choice. The morale of his lieutenants is important but winning the war is even more important. If working with reprogrammed Terminators allows the Resistance to fight the machines more effectively and achieve more victories then that's what John Connor will do even if it means sacrificing the morale of those close to him. Because as long as he's winning the war, then the people who are out there, the 99.9% of the population that don't know that John Connor hangs around with metal, will continue to believe in the myth and fight for John Connor. Really? Then what's Jesse all about? What's with Deets saying "That little metal bitch that always follows Connor around." Why does a Lt that is stationed on a sub know about Connor and his pet metal? I don't think that's an isolated case... How many nuclear subs do you think the Resistance has? These are soldiers who were important enough to come into contact with John Connor's inner circle. Sure, they might bring this rumor back to Australia with them but how important is this rumor compared to the victories that the Resistance has achieved? Let's also not forget that all leaders have had their dirty little secrets. Hitler was addicted to meth, FDR was rumored to have consulted psychics to get advice on issues of national importance, and we all know what Putin has done. Did any of that change anything. The Nazis were still fanatically loyal to Hitler. FDR was still elected President four times. Putin had a 75% approval rating when he left the presidency.
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