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Post by thefallisshort on Mar 28, 2009 15:23:30 GMT -5
I couldn't have said it better myself. I completely agree.
The John and Sarah scenes were so cute, but equally heartbreaking because I know that the show is coming to an end...
What a twist with the JH thing! I really liked this episode. It hurt to watch. I mean that in a good way. I was really worried for Sarah, I knew that Charlie was a goner, and I just don't want to see the show end. This episode reminded me why I'm going to miss it. Did anyone else think Lena was breathtaking in this episode?
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Post by aceplace57 on Mar 28, 2009 15:27:52 GMT -5
I wonder how long it'll be before Sarah gets the chip out. It's already created a cyst and is probably infected. Using a pocketknife at home could lead to sepsis.
Although, I got a hunch it won't ever be mentioned again. Just like they didn't say anything about painting over the bloody wall or cleaning up the terminator crematorium in the garage before they moved out.
I wonder why Cameron is the only Terminator that can't out run a car? All the other Terminators in the movies have chased down cars, jumped on the back and attacked the driver. They were some of the best scenes in the movies. Cameron runs a few feet and gives up.
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Post by thecolours on Mar 28, 2009 17:00:20 GMT -5
Very subtle biblical reference that some of you may have missed. Did anyone notice how the writers, or producers, positioned John Henry's body( at the 38:15 mark), when he asked the question, "My God. Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?" (<---Jesus last words on the cross.) He was siting just like Jesus did at the last supper. www.quantumyoga.org/images/the-last-supper.gifIt totally went over my head the firs two times I watched this episode.
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Post by hzhp800 on Mar 28, 2009 17:35:33 GMT -5
One thing I might also add that may be obvious is that John Henry as leader of a separatist terminator faction would go some way to explain the Ark from Allison from Palmdale. Basically, this assumes Cameron was being completely truthful to Allison when she suggests that she and others do not want a war or to eradicate humanity.
In essence, Skynet proper goes about its business trying to eradicate humanity and perhaps even most animals (either as collateral damage or perhaps out of paranoia). John Henry, biblical scholar that he has become under Ellison, sees human life (and perhaps all life) as sacred and thus seeks to ensure that they have a chance to survive and weather the "flood" of the global war. This way if Skynet manages to defeat Connor and the resistance, John Henry would still be able to reintroduce (repopulate) the planet if/when they overcome Skynet. Notice that last week both Weaver and John Henry were fascinated by the bird eggs in the nest on the side of the building. Both of them seem genuinely curious about organic life (including humans, notice how Weaver asked Savannah "Why?" videos of her dad weren't the same as actually being with him, Shirley Manson played it with overt curiosity and not simply as a mechanical "for future reference: why isn't it the same?" she played it as though she was genuinely interested in the answer).
Now, Cameron did kill Allison. So, to explain that I'd have to say that John Henry has taken to a rather broad view of the "human life is sacred" rule. Weaver's influence perhaps. Cameron was likely going to have to kill Allison at some point for the same reason T-1000s generally kill the subject they copy. Having the original person running around is a clear liability. So, in their view it's probably okay to kill particular humans if/when they pose a threat or if its necessary for the mission. This, of course, wouldn't be all that different than the view many (most?) humans actually endorse with collateral damage, capital punishment, self-defense among others. Few people adhere to a strict no-kill policy.
Therefore, it would be likely that John Henry and his faction would see a clear distinction between killing particular humans for the sake of an important mission and driving humanity to extinction. John Henry with his Ark is only committed to ensuring that humans and (perhaps other animals) will not be driven to extinction by Skynet. They might even hold a similar view with regard to Terminators, ie. okay to kill a few of them when necessary, but don't drive to extinction. This likely puts them at odds with the human resistance.
In any case, Ellison must have played some sort of defining role in John Henry's development since as we'll recall Skynet sent a Terminator to kill him (which Cromartie dispensed with). While it's possible that the Terminator was meant merely to get inside and try and destroy the Turk (or even retrieve it) I don't think that would have worked nor do I think Skynet would have thought so either. That triple eight would have been badly outmatched by Weaver, who might have even detected him before he could've done anything, and even had he been successful she would have found herself in possession of a fully intact (chip and all) T-888 which would likely be more valuable than the Turk itself. Given that Mr. Merck and Weaver had likely already made copies of the Turk code and so could easily resurrect it (the hardware itself isn't supposed to be that special and certainly not as good as a Triple eight processor).
Therefore, any attempt by the Ellison Terminator to move against Weaver would have likely enhanced John Henry's development not hinder it, if we assume that Ellison's role is non-essential. However, if Ellison's tutelage was indeed essential and vital in distinguishing John Henry's development from Skynet's (Perhaps even, giving John Henry an edge, that Skynet fears) than the loss of Ellison would be crippling and vital.
One problem with this theory might the fact that Skynet sent a "replacement" for Ellison rather than a run of the mill Terminator just to kill him. But even so, replacing Ellison would still have advantages if what I say about his value is true. For one, he could go back to the FBI and/or may be in a decent position to go after the Connors after disposing of Ellison (which I'm claiming would have been his primary purpose). Or after handing the crippling blow of terminating Ellison and achieving the primary goal, why not go for broke and try and throw a wrench in all of Weaver's plans, if Ellison is the vital component the damage has been done and the risk is minimal.
Anyway, all of this could change with the next episode, of course, since its title could suggest that John Henry might go bad, who knows it's all in the air.
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Post by Andrew Goode on Mar 28, 2009 19:29:03 GMT -5
I couldn't have said it better myself. I completely agree. The John and Sarah scenes were so cute, but equally heartbreaking because I know that the show is coming to an end... What a twist with the JH thing! I really liked this episode. It hurt to watch. I mean that in a good way. I was really worried for Sarah, I knew that Charlie was a goner, and I just don't want to see the show end. This episode reminded me why I'm going to miss it. Did anyone else think Lena was breathtaking in this episode? yeah. I thought she looked absolutely stunning especially in the jungle flashbacks. The way her hair was...reminded me of Lara Croft. I mean...was that intentional?
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Post by VALIANT CHAMPION on Mar 28, 2009 20:02:41 GMT -5
So you guys don't think there is a chance the first turk was stolen before Sarah burned the house down?
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Post by Andrew Goode on Mar 28, 2009 20:32:28 GMT -5
Has it been confirmed that Sarah did burn Andy's house down or Derek?
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Post by wb5 on Mar 28, 2009 20:34:08 GMT -5
Because Derek in the basement happens in both versions? You are assuming Fisher and whatever happened in the basement are the same event. I thought Derek had made it clear that he had absolutely no knowledge of the Fisher event happening to him as Jesse described it to him - thus implying a separate timeline, and a 'different' Derek with his own torture event? And the last ep implied we were dealing with a different Jesse to the one Original!Derek knew, not the woman he loved originally. I may have misunderstood that point, but that's how it seemed to me at the time. Two Dereks might also imply that S3 could feature an Alternate Derek if Original Derek does indeed die. ETA: I see I'm not the only one to trip over this - terminatorwiki.fox.com/thread/2621201/Cameron%27s+future%3FI'm likewise confused by this. The FOX thread you quoted has some decent suggestions about how the timelines were affected, first by Cameron coming back, then by Derek killing Andy Goode. They speculate Derek coming back saved Cameron from dying before judgment day (would be pretty ironic, but why not), and this in turn led to Jesse's future with a very "tight" Cameron-John relationship. I also got the impression initially that Cameron is now supposed to be from Jesse's timeline, but as they pointed out on FOX, Cameron didn't know who Fischer was. So maybe Jesse lost her child in more than one timeline (though it's hard to see events going the same way as in Jesse's timeline). And to what torture of Derek is Cameron referring? She didn't know who Fischer was (he tortured Derek in Jesse's timeline) so presumably it's not that, the basement scene of D&D could have happened in either timeline but I'm not sure Derek was tortured, there. Confused as hell by all of this. I liked it though, that it is confirmed now that Weaver does not own Kaliba, and we now have to see her actions in a different light. I had suspected for a while we would get 2 competing Skynets, and it looks like JH isn't (necessarily) a bad guy - though he could still grow into one. It looks to me like a - very uneasy - alliance between the T1001 and the Connors is in the cards, as Kaliba/Skynet has attacked both in the same episode. I agree with those who said that Sarah's flashback scenes were too slow/drawn out though, this didn't work too well. On the other hand, I did like the way they understated the death of Charlie; your imagination can fill in what happened, and I think this works pretty well. A big dramatic moment of "leave without me, John" wasn't needed, IMO, and the scene worked without it (for me). The implication is there and that's enough. By the way, to the one who wrote that this is the second time they didn't show a person's moment of dying: it's far from certain Jesse is dead. We saw Charlie's body, and those attackers were shooting to kill. We don't even know if Derek's gun was loaded, last episode.
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timstuff
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Post by timstuff on Mar 29, 2009 0:39:34 GMT -5
Okay, here's a thought-- assuming that Kaliba is not at all affiliated with Ziera, and that Kaliba is in fact connected to the REAL Skynet, here's a hunch I've got... I think that the T-1001 impersonating Catherine Weaver did not kill the real Catherine Weaver. I think that Real!Weaver was part of the intependent machines' plans to create an anti-Skynet, but she ended up being terminated by the real Skynet. So as their plan B, the indie machines sent back the T-1001 to take Real!Weaver's place, and ensure that their Skynet countermeasure comes to fruition-- and thus, we've got John Henry, who has managed to end up in the crosshairs of Skynet, as will little Savannah.
As odd as this is to say... I don't think Weaver is the villain we've made her out to be. She's simply an independent machine trying to secure the future of her brothers in arms, and defeat their former master with the help of their "brother," John Henry. If she's not actually a villain, then that would explain why we've been told that there won't be a showdown between her and Cameron.
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Post by samuel95 on Mar 29, 2009 0:56:55 GMT -5
Clearly both Derek and Jesse came from extremely similar, but not identical timelines. They had an amorous relationship in both, so why not a child in both? I'll assume in both timelines that Skynet copied Allison from Palmdale to infiltrate. I'll assume also that the Carter had a similar incident in both timelines for John's favorite terminator to debrief. In Derek's timeline the machine talking to Jesse post Carter incident was the new Allison copy, not the Cameron friend of 20 years. Might be the Allison copy in Jesse's timeline too, but it just doesn't really matter any more.
I haven't read the wiki, but I hope this line of reasoning might be helpful.
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timstuff
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Post by timstuff on Mar 29, 2009 1:03:53 GMT -5
I think that Cameron and Jesse are from a similar timeline, and Derek had time traveled prior to either of them, meaning that his timeline is particularly unique from theirs. He apparently traveled to a later date than Cameron (as did Jesse, likely), but I'm pretty sure he still went through first. My guess is that Jesse was the last one to travel through. It's possible that in Jesse's timeline John and Cameron have been together for life, but ultimately it doesn't change the fact that in both Cameron and Jesse's timelines, Jesse went on the last Jimmy Carter mission and fouled things up, resulting in her baby being lost.
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Post by thecolours on Mar 29, 2009 1:05:10 GMT -5
Okay, here's a thought-- assuming that Kaliba is not at all affiliated with Ziera, and that Kaliba is in fact connected to the REAL Skynet, here's a hunch I've got.... . Assuming? I think it's a 99.99% likely that Kaliba is in cahoots with Skynet, and not Ziera. Side note: did you notice how the Kaliba goons were wearing gray uniforms? I don't think they are all grays that came back through time to do Skynet's bidding like Charles Fischer. They are just hired goons to do Kaliba's dirty work. But, I thought the symbolism of the gray uniforms was very in your face. "Hey, were human, and were unknowingly helping Skynet. Look at us!" Side, side note: The humans helping out Terminator Carter in Heavy Metal were wearing gray overalls. Not saying these events are connected. But, I thought it was a funny coincidence.
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timstuff
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Post by timstuff on Mar 29, 2009 1:42:59 GMT -5
Ha, nice find there. I didn't pick up on the gray uniforms thing, so Karma for you. ^_^
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Post by driftlight23 on Mar 29, 2009 4:09:02 GMT -5
I also got the impression initially that Cameron is now supposed to be from Jesse's timeline, but as they pointed out on FOX, Cameron didn't know who Fischer was. So maybe Jesse lost her child in more than one timeline (though it's hard to see events going the same way as in Jesse's timeline). And to what torture of Derek is Cameron referring? She didn't know who Fischer was (he tortured Derek in Jesse's timeline) so presumably it's not that, the basement scene of D&D could have happened in either timeline but I'm not sure Derek was tortured, there. When Cameron said to Derek that he had given up information about a location under torture before, I took that as a direct reference to the D&D Chopin scene - ie, she would know, because she was the one doing the torturing - but as has been discussed before, there seemingly wasn't enough time between Derek's escape and him seeing Cam at the bunker for her to have been captured and reprogrammed. (I can't quite remember what the Fischer torture produced - was it not a 'demo'/learning scenario for the observing Ts?) So it might not have been Cam in the D&D basement, but the Chopin is still a weird, weird coincidence in that case. Does it suggest two Cams? My brain cannot cope! However, whatever the answer is, whether time is being retconned rewritten as they go, or there are different loops, I hope it's not just skipped over and never mentioned again. Except maybe all the explanations are being saved up for S3...
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Post by thecolours on Mar 29, 2009 12:26:07 GMT -5
I also got the impression initially that Cameron is now supposed to be from Jesse's timeline, but as they pointed out on FOX, Cameron didn't know who Fischer was. So maybe Jesse lost her child in more than one time line (though it's hard to see events going the same way as in Jesse's time line). And to what torture of Derek is Cameron referring? She didn't know who Fischer was (he tortured Derek in Jesse's time line) so presumably it's not that, the basement scene of D&D could have happened in either time line but I'm not sure Derek was tortured, there. When Cameron said to Derek that he had given up information about a location under torture before, I took that as a direct reference to the D&D Chopin scene - IE, she would know, because she was the one doing the torturing - but as has been discussed before, there seemingly wasn't enough time between Derek's escape and him seeing Cam at the bunker for her to have been captured and reprogrammed. (I can't quite remember what the Fischer torture produced - was it not a 'demo'/learning scenario for the observing Ts?) So it might not have been Cam in the D&D basement, but the Chopin is still a weird, weird coincidence in that case. Does it suggest two Cams? My brain cannot cope! However, whatever the answer is, whether time is being retconned rewritten as they go, or there are different loops, I hope it's not just skipped over and never mentioned again. Except maybe all the explanations are being saved up for S3... Hadley on the writers blog said that the events in Dungeons and Dragons are not so linear as they appear to be. There's actually quite a bit of time that passes between some of those scenes. "Last night also featured the return of Lena’s 300 co-star, Peter Mensah, as General Perry. If you were paying close attention to his conversation with Derek, you can deduce when these Alpine Fields future scenes take place in relation to those from Dungeons and Dragons. Piecing it all together, you’ll realize that they fit into the implied time lapse between certain scenes from that season one episode. But just how much time lapsed?" www.fox.com/blogs/terminator/?s=Alpine+Fields
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