t101
Major
Posts: 716
|
Post by t101 on Nov 11, 2008 2:50:55 GMT -5
I loved the doctor from from 2 episodes back. I loved Charlie Dixon. It's not so much that Riley annoys me as what John does with her. It's not the same as what Cameron and Sarah were doing because they were doing something useful.
|
|
traitorsgate
Sergeant
This is Cam. She's trained for an Off-World kick murder squad. Talk about Beauty and the Beast.
Posts: 264
|
Post by traitorsgate on Nov 11, 2008 3:04:10 GMT -5
I don't have any problems with taking liberties for the sake of dramatic effect. However when the writers seem to bounce all over the place in regards to how the Connors perceive other humans it gets a bit much. On one hand they have no qualms about attending a military college and giving some kid the good news as to his future. Yet on the other hand the Riley issue is fast degenerating into two bit melodrama. Sooner or later John Connor is going to have to start building up a network of allies in order to be able to make the concept of him being the leader of the human resistance an idea that you can actually try to sell. This won't work while the writers persist with this rather silly idea that John Connor should remain locked away only to be brought out post Judgement Day to be our saviour, no sorry it just ain't working for me.
|
|
|
|
Post by sarah on Nov 11, 2008 3:10:34 GMT -5
It's not so much that Riley annoys me as what John does with her. It's not the same as what Cameron and Sarah were doing because they were doing something useful. Well, personally, I think a major problem here is that John is not allowed to be useful. Last ep he was told to stay home and clean up --so why not call his gf over to help him w/his forced inactivity/normalcy? I love Sarah but she's the one who doesn't want John to be a soldier yet. Well, who can blame her as a mother? Still, it's that contradiction between her training of John/talk of destiny and of what she actually limits him to that drives John up the wall. I think the dialog at the end of Ep.7 could've been better but still John's point stood: why does Sarah insist on 'protecting' him when there are so many times she can't? why do all of them insist on being so protective/paranoid over the little things for John when the big things require them to accept John as a comrade in arms? Cameron calling Riley a "security risk" is what set off his fuse. John has defied his mother and uncle for the robot's sake even after she had proved the biggest security risk of all: damaged to the point of resuming her assassination mission. Isn't there hypocrisy here? It's meaner to throw Sarah's words in her face because she, after all, is human. But again, John is growing increasingly furious at all the contradictions here. He has an impossible standard to measure up to but isn't even allowed to stretch a muscle yet. Obviously, there's more at stake than just John's feelings. And each character has its own validity. But I do think that John is more justified by the series' premise than is being popularly stated. |
|
traitorsgate
Sergeant
This is Cam. She's trained for an Off-World kick murder squad. Talk about Beauty and the Beast.
Posts: 264
|
Post by traitorsgate on Nov 11, 2008 3:12:18 GMT -5
I loved the doctor from from 2 episodes back. I loved Charlie Dixon. It's not so much that Riley annoys me as what John does with her. It's not the same as what Cameron and Sarah were doing because they were doing something useful. What he's doing with her is no more a security risk than anything else that's been done thus far in this show. If she really turned out to be a problem then Derek or Cameron would I'm sure be only to happy to bury her. Frankly I fail to see how John Connor having a girlfriend with the fringe benefits that that entails makes him any less effective as a future leader, quite the opposite in fact. Locking him away in his mother's basement may ironically appeal to a legion of nerds out there who want to identify with him as some sort of role model but it hardly makes for believable drama. |
|
|
|
Post by sarah on Nov 11, 2008 3:21:11 GMT -5
On one hand they have no qualms about attending a military college and giving some kid the good news as to his future. Yet on the other hand the Riley issue is fast degenerating into two bit melodrama. Sooner or later John Connor is going to have to start building up a network of allies in order to be able to make the concept of him being the leader of the human resistance an idea that you can actually try to sell. This won't work while the writers persist with this rather silly idea that John Connor should remain locked away only to be brought out post Judgement Day to be our saviour, no sorry it just ain't working for me. Well, I agree with you in that I believe Sarah/Derek/Cameron's concept of what John should be doing to prepare for JD is fatally flawed. But I disagree in that it hasn't curtailed my enjoyment of the show. IMO the show has been setting this up as a contradiction that is undermining their efforts. As far as I can tell it's deliberate. Wrt the military college- it wasn't about happy news, it was about a rescue mission --very consistent with the "adult" mentality of no-nonsence business-only dealings.  As for whether it's viable to have the adults here thinking this way... one has been locked up in an asylum and the other is in PTSD/whose world was destroyed at the age of 15... oh yeah, and the other one is a robot. I'm not surprised that their thinking is a lil skewed and isolationist. Sarah in her essence, quite beside TSCC, is a fugitive/rebel/crazed-single-minded survivor. I don't think her goal is to set up a smart network of allies etc.; it's just to keep him safe or take down SkyNet by herself. She's not wholly rational but she's got enough grit and heart to be legendary hero material. What John is thinking is often harder to tell --he's the more cool-headed at times but he's not really encouraged to think big and creatively on how to best prepare for/or defeat the end of the world. Alot of that is his own fault since he lacked confidence in S1 and placed it all in his mother's hands. But that's changing...so let's stay tuned!  |
|
t101
Major
Posts: 716
|
Post by t101 on Nov 11, 2008 3:32:42 GMT -5
What he's doing with her is no more a security risk than anything else that's been done thus far in this show. If she really turned out to be a problem then Derek or Cameron would I'm sure be only to happy to bury her. Frankly I fail to see how John Connor having a girlfriend with the fringe benefits that that entails makes him any less effective as a future leader, quite the opposite in fact. Locking him away in his mother's basement may ironically appeal to a legion of nerds out there who want to identify with him as some sort of role model but it hardly makes for believable drama. The problem with that is that you perceive holes in everything they do. What matters here is the intent. The others do what they out of purpose to help their cause, in case of Cameron and Sarah it was clean up John's mess. John took a bunch of needless risks because he wants to get laid. It doesn't make him less of a leader? So far his troops trust him less and less. |
|
|
|
Post by allergygal on Nov 11, 2008 3:36:55 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by sarah on Nov 11, 2008 4:00:08 GMT -5
Wow, great job in putting up the pics, Allergygal! It doesn't make him less of a leader? So far his troops trust him less and less. They're not his troops. They don't take orders from him. They take Sarah's orders, even if they die for Future John (or, you know, a chance to defeat a great evil). |
|
terrasj
Sergeant
Rossbond Connor Crew
Posts: 445
|
Post by terrasj on Nov 11, 2008 4:00:58 GMT -5
On one hand they have no qualms about attending a military college and giving some kid the good news as to his future. Yet on the other hand the Riley issue is fast degenerating into two bit melodrama. Sooner or later John Connor is going to have to start building up a network of allies in order to be able to make the concept of him being the leader of the human resistance an idea that you can actually try to sell. This won't work while the writers persist with this rather silly idea that John Connor should remain locked away only to be brought out post Judgement Day to be our saviour, no sorry it just ain't working for me. Well, I agree with you in that I believe Sarah/Derek/Cameron's concept of what John should be doing to prepare for JD is fatally flawed. But I disagree in that it hasn't curtailed my enjoyment of the show. IMO the show has been setting this up as a contradiction that is undermining their efforts. As far as I can tell it's deliberate. Wrt the military college- it wasn't about happy news, it was about a rescue mission --very consistent with the "adult" mentality of no-nonsence business-only dealings. As for whether it's viable to have the adults here thinking this way... one has been locked up in an asylum and the other is in PTSD/whose world was destroyed at the age of 15... oh yeah, and the other one is a robot. I'm not surprised that their thinking is a lil skewed and isolationist. Sarah in her essence, quite beside TSCC, is a fugitive/rebel/crazed-single-minded survivor. I don't think her goal is to set up a smart network of allies etc.; it's just to keep him safe or take down SkyNet by herself. She's not wholly rational but she's got enough grit and heart to be legendary hero material. What John is thinking is often harder to tell --he's the more cool-headed at times but he's not really encouraged to think big and creatively on how to best prepare for/or defeat the end of the world. Alot of that is his own fault since he lacked confidence in S1 and placed it all in his mother's hands. But that's changing...so let's stay tuned! Good points there. Thats what this series is about. Watching John change from a kid to becoming a man of his own. A mother being over-protective, and John's struggle to start making choices on his own. Unfortunately, the ones he's managing to make right now aren't very good, and all for the wrong reasons. The little planned romp to Mexico with Riley while bold and romantic - spending lavishly on a honeymoon suite and all, proved he could do it. But look at what all happened in its wake. Sarah was totally caught off-guard in her own home, got man-handled by Cromartie since he knew where they live now (thanks to a secret John kept to himself about a prior visitation). If Sarah wasn't deemed as still useful to Cromartie, he could've strangled her dead instead of unconscious. John took Riley out for supper, but unexpectedly ran into somebody who knew them, turned into John and Riley becoming arrested. All thanks to John wanting to have a romantic night or get-away with Riley (male teenage libido anyone?) and sneaked off with her to Mexico. True, John managed to keep cool in the heat of action when it really counted, but that action was in result paid consequences for some really bad independent choices John had made and acted on in the first place. Yeah, they were lucky this time extremely lucky. Some people just are gifted by luck and its really hard to explain, except that it just is, and things just happen in their favor. And its pure luck that things didn't go any worse than it was. Riley could've bought it or got injured or killed - same for Sarah. Sure, we're watching per episode John slowly coming into his own, making choices and all. And (hopefully) he's learning or going to have to learn the hard way how to tell the bad choices from the good choices. Consequences such as those from this episode should be a life lesson for John, if he's to become a leader. Your awesome! And I think you nailed it to the T. Here you go, a cookie with chocolate karma chips  |
|
traitorsgate
Sergeant
This is Cam. She's trained for an Off-World kick murder squad. Talk about Beauty and the Beast.
Posts: 264
|
Post by traitorsgate on Nov 11, 2008 4:03:23 GMT -5
The others do what they out of purpose to help their cause, in case of Cameron and Sarah it was clean up John's mess. John took a bunch of needless risks because he wants to get laid. It doesn't make him less of a leader? So far his troops trust him less and less. That may be the case but the others, namely Sarah & Derek are at the very least guilty of hypocrisy, as both have had their actions influenced by their emotional attachment to others. The irony is their attempting to stop John experiencing and thus learning to value the very essence of what their meant to be fighting for. Which of course brings us back to the question of just why they seem so hell bent on getting rid of Riley? Surely they can't be thinking that locking John Connor in the basement with nothing but a Bot for company is the ideal solution? Well it is if you want to turn him into a some sort of socially retarded cripple with no understanding of what it is to be human. |
|
|
|
Post by allergygal on Nov 11, 2008 4:12:20 GMT -5
Here you go, a cookie with chocolate karma chips Yum OK. So best episode in awhile. They used multiple POV to create a singlular puzzle, instead of a mash of seperate stories. it needed an Ellison revelation at the end...where he would be like "yea guys I'm going to fight with you now." Yes. That's exactly why I loved it. I disagree about Ellison, though. As happy as I was to see him finally meet Sarah, it would have been a bit much for him to say he wanted to join them. He's still trying to come to grips with it all. She knows he's a believer now so I'm sure he'll be helpful at times. And of course he's the connection to Catherine and The Turk, so once someone on team Connor actually *remembers* the Turk, all that will come into play. I'm probably in the minority, but I love Riley/John together. John needs someone in his life that sees him as a person and not the great savior of mankind. Riley has seen the danger. She can decide if it's worth being in John's life. I hope their relationship continues. I replied to this over in the Riley topic. Everybody's angry at John for his actions in this episode --which kinda surprises me. Was it irresponsible to runaway? Yes! But I'm not sure it did backfire, frankly. Sulking obediently in his room while Mommy's doing her thing downstairs and Cameron went off on a supply run would've gotten him killed by Cromartie in the first 5 minutes of the episode. Sarah and the others mighta gotten killed too if Chrome was in the mood but definitely we'd say goodbye to the last hope of mankind. :/ Then there'd be nicer things to say on his epitaph "good kid" being one of them but what'd be the point? Ah, but if John hadn't been lax about the security system last week, there would have been no robbery and no burglar at the bowling alley to give Cromartie the location of the house.  |
|
|
|
Post by vicheron on Nov 11, 2008 4:23:45 GMT -5
Yes. That's exactly why I loved it. I disagree about Ellison, though. As happy as I was to see him finally meet Sarah, it would have been a bit much for him to say he wanted to join them. He's still trying to come to grips with it all. She knows he's a believer now so I'm sure he'll be helpful at times. And of course he's the connection to Catherine and The Turk, so once someone on team Connor actually *remembers* the Turk, all that will come into play. Ellison and Sarah still have no way of contacting each other. In fact, Charlie probably doesn't have any way of contacting Sarah anymore. Since they have no leads on the Turk, they're more worried about the blood wall right now. |
|
|
|
Post by sarah on Nov 11, 2008 4:30:29 GMT -5
A mother being over-protective, and John's struggle to start making choices on his own. Unfortunately, the ones he's managing to make right now aren't very good, and all for the wrong reasons. I hate to nitpick, terrasj, but why are these wrong reasons?? It's okay if Sarah & Kyle give into youthful "libido" in T1 while escaping a Terminator, or for Derek to go off for secret meetings with his suspicious lover, or even for Sarah post-Kyle/T2 to spend months in a relationship with Charley while on the run.... but it's not okay for a teenage boy who's never taken a girl home before to go on a date with someone who's not a robot? I feel really weird making this argument because I have conservative values but the double standard is driving me to unconventional indignation.  Whoa, hold on a minute! John did not tell his mother about Cromartie because he thought they'd disposed of the threat ("He won't come back") since Riley successfully fooled him and Cameron taught him in S1 that a Terminator won't go back after checking out a lead (remember the fake John ruse?). So how did Cromartie say that he was able to find them? Oh, yeah! Because Sarah -whose humane heart I love- spared the life of the 4th theif who knew their address. Every other character has also run into complications before. What counts is that John found a way to extricate himself from jail by himself. Dealt with the consequences rather than sat around like a good but useless boy waiting for someone else to take charge. I hope so too, terrasj! And thanks. I also hope, though, that his life lesson is not to become as paranoid/isolated as Sarah & Derek. He's going to have to have his own style, his own choices. He is the one destined to lead. There's a reason why neither Sarah nor Derek is that future leader --even though they both have their important parts to play in shaping him. Just my $0.02  Hope I didn't offend anyone... Ah, but if John hadn't been lax about the security system last week, there would have been no robbery and no burglar at the bowling alley to give Cromartie the location of the house. Oops!  ;D But think about it this way.... John is the only one who even bothers to set up a security system! Doesn't he get points for intention?  Honestly though, I don't understand why no other member of the house had a system in place for intruders --be it "guard dog"/sentinel or hi-tech terminator tricks or good-old fashioned Sarah Connor guerilla boobytraps... IMO they rely on John in all the wrong ways.  |
|
terrasj
Sergeant
Rossbond Connor Crew
Posts: 445
|
Post by terrasj on Nov 11, 2008 4:44:34 GMT -5
The others do what they out of purpose to help their cause, in case of Cameron and Sarah it was clean up John's mess. John took a bunch of needless risks because he wants to get laid. It doesn't make him less of a leader? So far his troops trust him less and less. That may be the case but the others, namely Sarah & Derek are at the very least guilty of hypocrisy, as both have had their actions influenced by their emotional attachment to others. The irony is their attempting to stop John experiencing and thus learning to value the very essence of what their meant to be fighting for. Which of course brings us back to the question of just why they seem so hell bent on getting rid of Riley? Surely they can't be thinking that locking John Connor in the basement with nothing but a Bot for company is the ideal solution? Well it is if you want to turn him into a some sort of socially retarded cripple with no understanding of what it is to be human. Thats where Sarah's in a tough predicament. John friending with Riley means putting Riley's life in danger, as well as eventually having to risk telling her the full truth about their identity and life. As well as the carelessness John's exhibiting when it comes to Riley. OTOH, Sarah made her feelings known to Cameron "I don't like the effect you have on John" (or close to that spoken line anyways). Bot or not, Cameron's a similar aged, autonomicaly correct in appearance human girl, and Sarah's son is a teenage male. Nor does she trust Cameron anymore (as if she held much trust for her in the past) |
|
traitorsgate
Sergeant
This is Cam. She's trained for an Off-World kick murder squad. Talk about Beauty and the Beast.
Posts: 264
|
Post by traitorsgate on Nov 11, 2008 4:56:34 GMT -5
All the more reason to allow John to form a relationship with a real human female. Ultimately telling Riley about the truth is no more a risk than telling the kid at the military school or Charlie or Ellison. Sooner or later their all going to find out anyway. At some point The Connors are going to have a revelation, that is to say their going to realise that in order to survive their going to need allies. Running around by themselves will likely just get them killed, sooner rather than later.
|
|
Hope I didn't offend anyone...
;D But think about it this way.... John is the only one who even bothers to set up a security system! Doesn't he get points for intention? 
