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Post by vicheron on Nov 11, 2008 5:24:08 GMT -5
The problem is that all their potential allies are also potential threats. Ellison is a perfect example. There is a lot that he could do to help the Connors but Skynet is already aware of him. Cromartie tried to use him to get to the Connors. Skynet even sent a Terminator to replace him. Skynet may yet try to use Ellison again. In order for the Connors to make new allies, they have to ensure that those allies cannot become liabilities. They can really only rely on people who have been "out of the system" for long periods of time.
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terrasj
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Rossbond Connor Crew
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Post by terrasj on Nov 11, 2008 5:25:31 GMT -5
I hate to nitpick, terrasj, but why are these wrong reasons?? It's okay if Sarah & Kyle give into youthful "libido" in T1 while escaping a Terminator, or for Derek to go off for secret meetings with his suspicious lover, or even for Sarah post-Kyle/T2 to spend months in a relationship with Charley while on the run.... but it's not okay for a teenage boy who's never taken a girl home before to go on a date with someone who's not a robot? I feel really weird making this argument because I have conservative values but the double standard is driving me to unconventional indignation.  Yeah thats a tough one alright. Its easier to look down upon from past / previous examples. True, if Sarah and Kyle didn't, there'd be no John. That can't be undone, although the good that's come from it was having a son - John. Its also a parent / child thing. Parents usually try to prevent their children making the same mistakes as they had made themselves earlier in their 'carefree / reckless' youths. Though Derek being out with Jesse, if he hadn't been spending time with her, he may have been hanging around the house as a possibility. Detour and prevent said robbery. Theres always the possibility of John getting Riley pregnant. We don't know what happens to her in the later episodes let alone post JD. Theres also the slight risk of catching something from Riley since we know little about her and she's fairly adventurous. For simplicity's sake, she's probably clean and safe. Thats usually a parent's worry. Sarah and John can't really afford any extra complications getting added to the mix that may arise from John's involvement with Riley. While since John really cares for her, that could also send John into an emotional tailspin should she get killed. I can't help but feel sorry for both Sarah and John, since theres no simple or easy answer. Both made errors in judgement. John should've told his mother but decided not to. Sarah also had her faults, and add to the fact the teen was roughly John's age from a mom's perspective. But 2 wrongs don't make a right either. True. Yourwelcome Personally, I'm not finding you offensive. We're all keeping polite and to the topic, each with our own perspective and having a good debate & discussion. All the more reason to allow John to form a relationship with a real human female. Ultimately telling Riley about the truth is no more a risk than telling the kid at the military school or Charlie or Ellison. Sooner or later their all going to find out anyway. At some point The Connors are going to have a revelation, that is to say their going to realise that in order to survive their going to need allies. Running around by themselves will likely just get them killed, sooner rather than later. The problem is that all their potential allies are also potential threats. Ellison is a perfect example. There is a lot that he could do to help the Connors but Skynet is already aware of him. Cromartie tried to use him to get to the Connors. Skynet even sent a Terminator to replace him. Skynet may yet try to use Ellison again. In order for the Connors to make new allies, they have to ensure that those allies cannot become liabilities. They can really only rely on people who have been "out of the system" for long periods of time. And therein is the conundrum... |
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Post by aceplace57 on Nov 11, 2008 8:44:30 GMT -5
I was surprised that Sarah was so rude to Ellison. He's seen enough now that he knows about the danger of Terminators. I'm puzzled why Sarah didn't explain about Skynet and the efforts to stop it. There's no security issues involved. Skynet is already very much aware that Sarah is working to stop its development.
Sarah's hostile attitude did nothing except drive Ellison further towards Catherine Weaver's plans. He'll probably become convinced that she's working to stop the robots (Ellison doesn't know about Skynet yet). Ellison is a trained investigator and he certainly saved John and Sarah from Cromartie. Sarah practically told him to go F himself. Meanwhile, Weaver is constantly telling Ellison that he's important and that she needs him.
I agree with other posters that it's more and more difficult to accept the idea that Sarah, John and Cameron will magically stop Skynet all by themselves. Some sort of organization has to be built. There's many models that can be studied and used. The French Resistance network is one of the better known. Small cells of fighters that work independently. They get orders through message drops. They don't know the names of fighters or leaders in other cells. Read any decent espionage book. Some of the older authors like Ian Flemming and John le Carré were OSS or MI6 during WWII. John le Carré is by far one of the most detailed and accurate cold war writers.
It's time the show takes the next step. They have to start recruiting people and building an organization. The Lone Ranger approach isn't believable and it's quickly becoming tiresome. I want to see less gunfights & explosions and more espionage and maybe then they'll have a chance at stopping Skynet. Killing a Cyborg every other week won't keep fans interested for very long. Borrow a few pages from Robert Ludlum's books.
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t101
Major
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Post by t101 on Nov 11, 2008 9:01:26 GMT -5
That may be the case but the others, namely Sarah & Derek are at the very least guilty of hypocrisy, as both have had their actions influenced by their emotional attachment to others. The irony is their attempting to stop John experiencing and thus learning to value the very essence of what their meant to be fighting for. Which of course brings us back to the question of just why they seem so hell bent on getting rid of Riley? Surely they can't be thinking that locking John Connor in the basement with nothing but a Bot for company is the ideal solution? Well it is if you want to turn him into a some sort of socially retarded cripple with no understanding of what it is to be human. Why they want to get rid of Riley is for one she's a clueless bystander who is going to get killed. And two, he acts like an idiot with her. Sarah did send John to school for the very purpose of experiencing things. It's just Riley has caused trouble every single time almost. And you can't compare a childish act that John does with Sarah refusing to commit murder. As far as Derek goes, you mean Jesse? It may cause them trouble yet true. To be fair, Derek doesn't criticize John for getting a girlfriend, he criticizes him for the screw up he created. I'm fine with the relationship continuing but John needs to use his head more. |
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Post by aceplace57 on Nov 11, 2008 9:18:45 GMT -5
TSCC has an interesting continuity problem. One side of Cromartie's head was practically taken off in the church attack. All of the metal was exposed and even it was shredded. Yet the spoiler pics of him freshly dug up only show a few scratches.  The fx dummy is posted on page 1 of this thread. Are fans are supposed to just forget about his damage from one week to the next?  |
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cyadon
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A Random Sci-Fi Geek
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Post by cyadon on Nov 11, 2008 9:26:39 GMT -5
TSCC has an interesting continuity problem. One side of Cromartie's head was practically taken off in the church attack. All of the metal was exposed and even it was shredded. Yet the spoiler pics of him freshly dug up only show a few scratches. The fx dummy is posted on page 1 of this thread. Are fans are supposed to just forget about his damage from one week to the next? That could very well be an incomplete or discarded mock up. Until I see the error in the show I won't presume it's there. |
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Post by conium on Nov 11, 2008 9:38:36 GMT -5
Did anyone notice a sense of bewilderment apparent on Cameron's face as she shot Cromartie, right before John's "lights out" shot (John's 1st Terminator kill, yay).
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cyadon
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A Random Sci-Fi Geek
Posts: 612
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Post by cyadon on Nov 11, 2008 9:44:54 GMT -5
Oops!  ;D But think about it this way.... John is the only one who even bothers to set up a security system! Doesn't he get points for intention?  Honestly though, I don't understand why no other member of the house had a system in place for intruders --be it "guard dog"/sentinel or hi-tech terminator tricks or good-old fashioned Sarah Connor guerilla boobytraps... IMO they rely on John in all the wrong ways.  I don't know if I want to imagine a security system by Cameron... Sarah: What was that??? Cameron: The Sentry gun in the front. John walks in: Mom... the mail.. Cameron interrupts John: He knew where we live. Did anyone notice a sense of bewilderment apparent on Cameron's face as she shot Cromartie, right before John's "lights out" shot (John's 1st Terminator kill, yay). I dunno. Does Cameron get the kill for pumping him full of solid slugs from a Remington (had to be solid slugs, no buckshot would do that)? Or does Sarah for smashing the chip into itty bitty bits? |
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Post by aceplace57 on Nov 11, 2008 9:47:31 GMT -5
Cameron kills humans without flinching.
But, she definitely seems bothered by killing Cyborgs.
I guess in a way she's a traitor to her own kind.
I've lost count. Hasn't Cameron killed 4 Cyborgs so far? Vick, the power plant bot, pretzel girl and now Cromartie. She always looks a little dazed afterward.
That may be the reason Cameron was doing such a pathetic job filling in Cromartie's grave. Her shovel was only picking up a little dirt and she was moving slow. Summer is a good actress. She wouldn't make a mistake like that. They obviously were reminding us that Cameron is still a little flaky.
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Post by conium on Nov 11, 2008 9:52:57 GMT -5
I dunno. Does Cameron get the kill for pumping him full of solid slugs from a Remington (had to be solid slugs, no buckshot would do that)? Or does Sarah for smashing the chip into itty bitty bits? In my opinion, it's the last bullet to power down the chip, permanently. But that's my opinion, I'm open to other suggestions. |
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Post by metroid13 on Nov 11, 2008 9:54:26 GMT -5
In reference to the above debate:
I'm all for John having a girlfriend, but not one who's completely clueless. If the situation is placed into perspective for her, she'll suddenly become at least a helluva lot more useful. Otherwise you'll see more situations like a station full of Mexican cops getting annihilated, and three thieves in a bowling alley being executed. There's a bit of a domino effect setup in place here: John and Riley interact->Problems arise->People are killed->John is scolded, rinse, lather repeat.
Sarah is totally right to perceive a problem in her, and I think the solution would be to simply tell Riley what's going on and hope she doesn't run away screaming.
Cameron plainly shows more remorse for killing robots than humans; for the humans it may as well be stepping on cockroaches for her. But robots? They're her. They're all the same. Remember at the end of Queen's Gambit where Cameron sits down to write on a piece of paper while Derek is thrashing on the kitchen table? I'm willing to bet *everything* that the note was addressed to Vick the Terminator.
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Post by aceplace57 on Nov 11, 2008 10:00:45 GMT -5
Cromartie was pretty much dead before his chip was pulled.
Otherwise he would have continued fighting.
Pulling the chip and smashing prevents reverse engineering.
It's normally not an execution device.
Most of the Terminator kills were group efforts. Pretzel girl was the only one that Cameron killed without help.
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Post by stealthgear on Nov 11, 2008 12:57:14 GMT -5
Do you think Cameron can Resurrect Chromartie into a good guy? Doesn't she have that extra chip on hand?
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Post by potomac79 on Nov 11, 2008 13:14:01 GMT -5
Cameron's expression with terminator kills has always been curious. It may be a side-effect of he peculiar brand of reprogramming. With Cromartie, though, I think it was a little more wonder in the fact that he was still standing despite all of the damage (and if she was out of shells, it would have complicated matters for her).
aceplace57, I think Ellison does know about Skynet. As Sarah alluded to, Ellison has seen her Pescadero tapes (and presumably Kyle's tapes) and thus knows the entire future mythology--or at least the mythology before it was changed with all the post-T2 time travel.
The curiosity about Ellison is why he didn't volunteer without hedging to join the team. He knows three are humans and one is a "weapon". He has a need to be anchored while stumbling through events he still doesn't quite comprehend. On the other hand, CW knows about the machines...but she's a cipher. He'd clearly rather be with team Connor.
I'm still unsure if the Turk does become Skynet. The Japanese team is the one that got the coveted government contract, after all. I'm still leaning to the idea that the Turk becomes Cameron and her crossing-against-the-light ilk.
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Post by chrisimo on Nov 11, 2008 13:25:45 GMT -5
I'm wondering whether all this talking that is supposed to happen between Cameron and John in the future is rather talking between Allison Young and John.
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And thanks.
Hope I didn't offend anyone...
;D But think about it this way.... John is the only one who even bothers to set up a security system! Doesn't he get points for intention? 
