t101
Major
Posts: 716
|
Post by t101 on May 8, 2009 3:21:02 GMT -5
I think you are putting to much emphasis on that quote. I think "John we can't" was just an immediate obvious reaction to the craziness that was about to happen.
|
|
|
Post by littleb on May 8, 2009 3:29:37 GMT -5
I'm sure I've already talked about why I hated that scene before, but I'll recap: John ditched his mother (who he believed had cancer) and bailed on trying to stop the apocalypse so he could jump to the future with some liquid metal he'd just met (whose motives were questionable at best and who was verbally bitch-slapping his mom all over the place) to pursue his one true love: a computer chip. And Sarah accepted that. Ack! <<gag>> Yeah, I'm with you so far I've been trying to cut John a bit of slack. I'm in an "unconventional" relationship myself, I should give him a little more lee-way for his. Okay. I tried that, I really did. But I keep coming back to: yeah, but my girlfriend never went all psycho and tortured my mother and tried to kill me. She doesn't have a glitch that makes her completely unreliable and unpredictable, nor does she lie, keep secrets or threaten my friends. (Although she does totally cheat at Bug Slug...) The actions of John in Samson & D can be put down to him being pissed at Sarah over Sarkissian. Fine. Maybe he truly believed she should have protected him with her hands tied behind her back and all strangled, and to punish her he subsequently goes against her and resurrects the one thing he considers able to "save his life". Okay, I can kinda buy that, it made him look like a resentful little prat, but he was supposed to because he then spent the next ten episodes or so working through that angst. Which brings us to... The whole using her to get to him thing was a massive issue. But there's another problem with that - the "bad bitch" switch in Sarah. I thought we were supposed to see SMW as a turning point for Sarah, the point where she realised she did have the ability to protect John. I guess, that was more of a Sarah thing and John didn't necessarily have to buy into that (or even be aware of it). As Cameron said to Sarah, John was always going to be distracted by Sarah's well-being. Well, I guess Born to Run put paid to that little theory. He questions whether or not she's sick and then leaves her with the question still hanging in the air (and by Sarah not denying it, are we assuming that she is sick?) and abandons her to chase Cameron's chip. <sigh> Sarah considered the human bond to be the important one. Jesse did too. So did Derek. We can probably take Jesse out of the equation, John didn't really know her - although the lengths she went to to try and prove her theory should have clued John in a little. But if the two people he is the closest to are both telling him the same thing, surely we're supposed to infer that this is the way for John to go. Season 2 spent a lot of time building that theme into the episodes, in the end Born to Run regressed John away from John Connor and straight back to post- Samson & Delilah John Baum. I can't reconcile it with it being the sanest choice. Why? "He's got her chip." Yep. And? You've got a mission, John. Something about saving the world. That's pretty important. Yes, some may argue what use is saving the world if we're not going to be able to follow our hearts and find true love? Ultimately this show is about love, it's about a mother loving her son so much she undergoes the worst of the worst and sacrifices everything to try and change his fate. I've always thought that saving the world to Sarah is indelibly linked with, but somehow secondary to, saving her son, but she never seems to forget that Judgement Day is something that they're working to prevent. John took JD out of the equation, his sole motive for jumping with Weaver was finding Cameron, there was no happy by-product of also saving humanity. It was a crap bit of writing. I can't come down on any other conclusion. It worked well for neither character and neither came out of it looking good. It made Sarah look weak, yes, if she really didn't think it was the sanest of options, pull him out of there. Fight for him. And John <shakes head> Oh dear. I can't even believe the True Love Forever thing because it was shoe-horned into this episode so quickly it rang hollow. Not only that, but Cameron's actions and reactions in the motel implied that she pulling John around by his... hormones and ultimately has an end-game as yet unestablished. So not only does John abandon his potentially sick mother, his mission (think Sarah might've mentioned Danny Dyer to him?) he ultimately does it jump after a relationship based on falsehood. No wonder he jumps through to a timeline where no one's heard of him. The resistance might be better off without this version. If it gets us a Season 3 and allows them to fix all this, then I'm on board. It certainly gave the show a spectacular WTF? conclusion that's gotten people clamouring for more. If we don't get any more episodes and this is what we're left with, then I think I'll keep stopping my disc at the first "I love you."
|
|
k8ie
Corporal
Posts: 1,482
|
Post by k8ie on May 8, 2009 10:54:39 GMT -5
Okay, I think it's time to get into this because K8tie's been trying hard to convince me that my take on the time jump scene is wrong, but since I'm pretty well set on my own interpretation, it hasn't worked out very well. Two things, Chief: 1) it's spelled K8ie not K8tie 2) 'I am always right.' How much longer are you going to fight me on this fact? Just give in. It will make you feel better. I think you are putting to much emphasis on that quote. I think "John we can't" was just an immediate obvious reaction to the craziness that was about to happen. ^^ That. I don't think John makes a choice, LB. He stands there gawking at her as SARAH steps out of the time bubble. And John doesn't even get through processing the fact that Sarah's going to let him go alone before he *poofs* in to the future. John doesn't choose to leave without Sarah. Sarah chooses not to follow. That's two different things. And you can call Shenanigans on the way that scene ends up playing (and I think it's a fair call. There's a step missing IMO between Sarah thinking the future is safer for John than the present and thinking the future is safer for John with WEAVER) but I don't see it as John's decision. I disagree. Sarah tells John "people matter" and Derek says they're always watching for John to behave like a human being. John's dilemna, that Sarah recognizes, is that he considers Cameron "people" (he considered Uncle Bob "people" as well): though he's quite aware that Cameron is a machine, it doesn't change the tangle of emotions he has towards her that incorporate friend/sibling/confidant/protector/teacher/lover (leaving aside the text's strong implication that Cameron is, in many ways, a surrogate for Sarah in John's mind). Sarah doesn't shoot Cameron through the head because she respects the strength of John's feelings for her, if not the emotions themselves, and humane capacity for compassion and loyalty - however misguided - they represent. John can't lose everyone without losing some of that humanity as well. And if the fear of John turning hard and withdrawn and isolated led Sarah to take John to Charley, then with all other options terminated (*achem*), I can see her stepping out of the way of John's need to try save someone he loves, even if she is a machine. In Samson & Delilah, John raged at Sarah for being human and fallible. The pedestal he'd put her on (from which all parents first watch over their children) started to crumble in The Demon Hand, when he found the tape and she tumbles all the way off in Samson & Delilah because John's stone bitch, super-hero, hardass warrior mom isn't supposed to falter or have a weak moment or get taken out by a some random thug and get tied up and leave it to him to rescue her. Throughout the season, we've seen John variously discomfited and off-balance over witnessing Sarah's weakness, mistakes, failures - her humanity. John's struggle towards the realization that a parent can be wrong about something without being wrong about everything, that Sarah's authority and wisdom as his mother does not end with his childhood view of her as perfect and infallible, has defined their interactions this season. I see John confronting Sarah about her health and telling her that he loves her as a pivotal moment in their relationship - a sign that John has moved past his childish view of his mother and accepted that she has limitations and vulnerabilities. And, importantly, that she's still his mother and he still loves (and needs) her. At the same time, that gut-check moment where John actually askes his mother if she's dying (obliquely) and she confirms it (obliquely, they're still Connors - verbal communication is not their thing), fuels his panicky need to "save" Cameron from John Henry because Cameron is the one he can fix. Cameron is the one he can save. And John desperately, desperately needs to save someone. Like he says to Jesse in TITD, unlike people, machines can be fixed, they can be replaced, repaired. More importantly, John Connor can fix them. He can repair them. John can't save Sarah. He couldn't save Derek, Charley, Riley, Andy Goode, the Cheerleader, Myles Dyson, Todd and Janelle or his own father. He might be able to save Cameron. And Sarah, who is not 17 and who doesn't confuse personal with important even when she learned the fate of the world rested on her reproductive choices, steps out his way. Samson & Delilah was about "who's going to save me if you can't?" Born to Run was about "who can I save, if I can't save you?" Two very, very different things.
|
|
|
Post by allergygal on May 8, 2009 13:31:09 GMT -5
I think you are putting to much emphasis on that quote. I think "John we can't" was just an immediate obvious reaction to the craziness that was about to happen. I do think it's a really important line because it shows that Sarah wasn't okay with the idea of time jumping ahead. But the only dialog that happens between "John we can't" and her resigning herself to him leaving, with the "I'll stop it", is John saying "he's got her chip, he's got her." So it doesn't play as if there was any thought about John's safety in the mix. It plays to me like it was all about Sarah accepting John's bond/love/relationship with Cameron. She didn't try to stop him because her son loves a robot and there's nothing she can do to come between that. So we came full circle from S&D, except this time John didn't pull a gun on Sarah to keep her at bay, he actually wanted her to come with him. John's relationship with Cameron was certainly part of what this season was about, but the rest of it — all that important stuff about Sarah thinking she can't protect her son and that he'd be better off without her, got tossed.
|
|
|
Post by littleb on May 8, 2009 15:29:51 GMT -5
I don't think John makes a choice, LB. He stands there gawking at her as SARAH steps out of the time bubble. And John doesn't even get through processing the fact that Sarah's going to let him go alone before he *poofs* in to the future. I think half of the problem with the scene is it's too damn quick for anyone to process anything and in the end they all wind up looking like they're acting OOC. John does stand there with his gawk on, but Sarah has time to step out, so he could've followed and didn't. It was almost as if he just expected automatically that his mom would come too - cos she always does, she's always been there and yes, there's certainly a whole lot of shock when she steps aside. Which is an interesting twist in itself. For all he's bitched at Sarah this season, there's still a total expression of "Woah, mum, where you going?!" when she moves back. Mum, mom <shakes head> Sorry! True, but I can't accept either of their decisions (although you make a case that's better than the scene is worth!) There's a good few steps missing. I can't imagine Sarah thinking any unknown - potentially apocalyptic - future is safer for John, and certainly not with an unknown terminator. I don't care whether Weaver just saved their lives and talked a good talk or not. All she knows at that point is that her very distracted son is heading off to the Gods only know where to chase Cameron's chip. That in itself should've been enough for a strict bit of parental talking-to. Whether or not Sarah would've been right is another matter, but she would certainly have been in character. Season 2 spent a lot of time building that theme into the episodes, in the end Born to Run regressed John away from John Connor and straight back to post-Samson & Delilah John Baum. Hmm, it is all a bit twisted for the poor boy! Problem I had with Born to Run was the sudden jump from UST to True Love Forever. I didn't get it, it didn't work and therefore the motivation for him jumping after her rang false/forced. I like all the stuff you add to it, it makes their relationship a hell of a lot deeper than the episode did, which pretty much focused on the sex aspect and figured that that would be enough. Coming only 4 or so eps after Riley's death, the sudden switch to following Cam to the ends of the unknown just didn't work. I love their relationship (something else that was underwritten in S2). Most of the time Sarah doesn't know whether to shoot Cam or confide in her. I'm not sure it's respect for John's feelings that stop her shooting Cam though. She knows the feelings are there, but she knows that ending Cameron would effectively end her own relationship with John. I reckon if there was any way for her to get shut of Cameron and still have her son stick around, Cam would be thermited in a heartbeat. Future!John has Cameron though, he has her and he has her in isolation, sealing himself off from humanity and losing their trust. I know Jesse's methods were questionable, but her message seemed to be sound - putting John with Cameron from age 16 is not a good thing for the future. I guess he doesn't need her enough to stick around just in case she is sick. John does have important stuff to do, he has a world to save and yes, having a sick mother would be a potential distraction/danger. That's all well and good and I think Sarah would go for that. But at the end of this one, all I got was the mother remembering they actually had a mission and John buggering off to find his girlfriend. I can't see it as being anything deeper than that - it didn't seem to be intended as anything deeper than that which, for this show, was immensely disappointing. I like where you're going, but I'm not fully on-board. I wish they'd had more time/inclination to write it better. It just didn't gel at all for me. They ran the scenes so quickly - Sarah's sick > I love you > Cam's gone > I love Cam (more?)> John's gone > I love you too. There was so much missing in there. I think they settled on a cool ending and sacrificed their characterisation to get to it. She might've spent a minute to share those sentiments with her son... Sarah's made a lot of sacrifices for her mission - Charley, her freedom, any chance at a normal life - and she started doing that when she was his age... I'm not convinced that allowing John to act like a hormonal teen is a good mothering choice. I really wish that'd come across for me. I like the idea. They just failed to hit it home.
|
|
k8ie
Corporal
Posts: 1,482
|
Post by k8ie on May 8, 2009 17:12:40 GMT -5
It was almost as if he just expected automatically that his mom would come too - cos she always does, she's always been there and yes, there's certainly a whole lot of shock when she steps aside. Which is an interesting twist in itself. For all he's bitched at Sarah this season, there's still a total expression of "Woah, mum, where you going?!" when she moves back. Mum, mom <shakes head> Sorry! But that's exactly what happened, IMO. After everything, this is the moment that Sarah chooses to let John go and he's so stunned by that he's in the freaking future before he even processes that she's really going to let him go alone. I think, and I've said this to the Chief as well (with whom I've just gone through round 9 on this point) that the episode undersells (as TSCC tends to these points, which is a double-edged sword) Sarah's anxiety about John's safety in LA now that she's wanted again and the extent to which she was deadly serious about sending him away and leaving her in prison. Aldridge explicitly threatens John's life - "your son is coming in one of two ways: with your help or dead" - and the realization that even if she is arrested again (I want to say "captured" - Sarah's not a criminal, damnit, she just sometimes breaks the law), John will be implicated in her crimes and could end up in jail, which is as good as signing his death warrant. And John's just demonstrated that he won't follow orders where her life is at stake - and Sarah's worst fear is that she will get John killed. More than she's afraid of John's death, I think SMW... persuasively argues that she's terrified that she will be the cause of John's death. Sending/letting him go into the future is one way of making sure that he's not going to follow her into something fatal, be it jail or an ambush. This entire season - as John grows up and Sarah breaks down - has been about losing your illusions - that a Terminator could ever be a benign mechanism, that the only threat facing Sarah and John came from machines, that John and Sarah would always trust each other. At the same time, JF & co have been systematically stripping away the advantages they gave Sarah and John in their fight again Skynet in the pilot, from their faith in Cameron to the protection afforded by their "death" until they don't even have each other. It's a breathtakingly bold bit of plotting but to make it happen, there has to be this situation where no one has time to think things through. Sarah jumps after what must seem like only positive from this situation - that John might be safer in the future. (I need to watch again but I think there's an implication that this is intended to be a two-way trip but I'm not sure.) True Love is an interpretation you're putting on the scene, LB, not one that the text necessarily supports, IMO. I don't think John's in love with Cameron but he does love her and that's been clear, well at least since the scene where he tries to repair her hand in OOA. He's also attracted to her because he's 17 and Cameron looks like Summer Glau - John Connor is not dead, ergo there is sexual tension between him and the hot fake-teenage-girl killer-robot who's his near-constant companion. But "Born to Run" in particular also shows John being very clear-eyed about Cameron's nature - he doesn't rationalize it away or pretend that she's not what she is and that argues against true love to me but John does consider Cameron family (possibly the hot stepsister/brother you might possibly have fooled around with that time you got drunk after Cousin Kevin's wedding). All the character relationships are underwritten, it's what makes the show awesome but it's not universally viewer-friendly. Neither is Shakespeare but the juice is definitely worthe squeeze. That is respecting John's feeling, though. It's not necessarily coming from a noble place but it's respect nonetheless IMO. Jesse wouldn't know a good thing if it shot her in the head. Not that I'm biased (or think Derek is a good thing). ;D The problem isn't that Future!John (who I think John thinks is a douchebag but I digress) has Cameron, the problem is that Future!John has become so isolated that he has ONLY Cameron (if we take her word for it). He's so emotionally withdrawn and scarred and twisted under the weight of his responsibilities that he's choosing to spend his time with machines rather than interact with human beings (if Jesse's take is to be believed). But, as I said, (our) John, although he knows she's a machine, doesn't think of Cameron as a machine. He thinks of her as people. It's like with pets: a 42-year-old who only relates to his dog is an emotional cripple but a 17-year-old boy who clear-eyed and deliberately lets someone run down his dog without trying to save it is a sociopath. No, it's no the best thing that John's bonded to Cameron but the fact that he can form that attachment is good and, I suspect, why Sarah doesn't take her out back and shoot her life Ol'Yeller. You may hate the kid's dog but it's the kid's dog, eh? A) John's 17. Teenagers are impulsive. He didn't think Sarah wouldn't follow. The choice was her's not his. B) Not his girlfriend. His girlfriend was murdered to provide him with an object lesson. It can make a boy clingy about holding onto the rest of his friends. C) There's nothing particularly deep in John's thought process - "Cameron's in danger. We need to save her." Nor should there be anymore than there was an deeper meaning involved in breaking Sarah out of prison or breaking Derek out of prison before that. For people with a lot of responsibility on their shoulders, the Connors have a bad track record of doing boneheaded things for family - however you reckon the parametres. The scene had to run quickly because if you stop to think, there's no end of bad choices there. That's kind of the point - sometimes you're only choice is to get hit by the train or jump off the bridge when the right choice would have been not to go walking along the tracks in the first place. I don't see John's behaviour as a referendum on his love for his mother vs. his love for Cameron - if you do, you're going to be perpetually PO'd at huge chunks of the series. As you say, John didn't even realize he was making a choice. If he had, he might have made a different one but that meant he would have had to recognize there was a choice to make and the nice thing about John Connor is that he doesn't look at his relationship with the people he loves that way. Not to hang my argument upon a cliche but girls mature faster than boys precisely because you can wind up responsible for the survival of another human being in your teens. And, unlike John, she was forced to learn that distinction, whereas she's deliberately protected John from those kinds of choices for as long as she coiuld.
|
|
|
Post by aceplace57 on May 8, 2009 20:01:14 GMT -5
Sarah should have mixed liberal amounts of Saltpeter in John's coffee. Maybe then he wouldn't jump 20 years into the future at the drop of a hat. Or in this case, the loss of a chip. It's interesting that John's first reaction to Sarah's possible cancer was to blame Cameron. "You just have to have a leaky fuel cell." Duh, John have you considered the nuclear waste storage room that Sarah strolled through? She wasn't wearing a protective suit either. John may be the future leader of the resistance, but he's about as dense as a fence post. Not that I minded the motel scene. What happened after the disrobing, isn't what most red blooded males had in mind. Sharp knives and sexy girls are a bad mix.
|
|
schmacky
Major
"Make yourself useful."
Posts: 522
|
Post by schmacky on May 9, 2009 0:36:26 GMT -5
Duh, John have you considered the nuclear waste storage room that Sarah strolled through? She wasn't wearing a protective suit either. John may be the future leader of the resistance, but he's about as dense as a fence post. He probably didn't consider it since he probably didn't know about it...
|
|
|
Post by littleb on May 9, 2009 9:57:03 GMT -5
It was almost as if he just expected automatically that his mom would come too - cos she always does, she's always been there and yes, there's certainly a whole lot of shock when she steps aside. But that's exactly what happened, IMO. After everything, this is the moment that Sarah chooses to let John go and he's so stunned by that he's in the freaking future before he even processes that she's really going to let him go alone. Yeah, I can go with that. Am I wrong to be amused by it though?! Maybe it's because I'm a little down on John in this one, but it makes me laugh that he's so certain mom will be trotting along beside him and then she doesn't. <LOL> I'll just bet you have! Has she got to fingers in ears and la la la-ing yet? Yeah, undersells to the point where I'd not really thought about it! This ep should've been the two-parter, it left fans with way too much to do. Don't get me wrong, I love working out the finer points, but having to do it from scratch? Not so much. It's still a stupid thing to do though. I can't get along with that. At that point, she at least knows where her son is and who he's with. I know that she's going to be very wanted and the pressure is there for a split, but I can't reconcile that with the decision made to allow him to jump forward into the unknown (and for - IMHO - a pretty daft reason.) They took the time to go to Zeira, that was a risk in itself. They could have taken the time to go to a safe house, collect their thoughts, plan, strategise. Yes Sarah sometimes "just does", but not usually where John's involved and certainly never to this level. What's to say he doesn't jump through the bubble, startle someone on the other side and immediately take a bullet for his troubles? I just don't get that from the scene. I don't get that decision-making. I get John jumping to save Cameron. Sarah telling him "we can't" which implies heavily that she doesn't actually want him to go, and she then steps out to carry on the good fight. It's like they both expected the other to follow their lead, but neither of them did so they're almost accidentally left at either ends of the spectrum. If she had given him permission (it would have only taken a "go"), I might be more inclined to go with the safety theory but instead we're left with a wishy-washy non-conclusive bit of writing to try and shape into something more meaningful. I just watched it. Didn't pick up on any implication. John's stunned face was quite funny though He's been twitchy on the subject since Samson & D, as soon as Cam states that he loves her he pulls her plug. I wouldn't have gone for the TLF aspect, until that end scene where all of a sudden that catch in John's voice put more into their relationship than had been previously written. The sexual attraction aspect was all over the motel and it's that that has been a theme throughout the season. I did get a TLF vibe from the end, it didn't work because it was too damn sudden, but I thought that was where we were being steered. <LOL> There is no way this kid is growing up well-adjusted enough to save mankind. He'll still be in therapy when the world catches on fire. I don't mind the UST, I like that it's so screwed up and that you always pretty much suspect that Cam's playing John for her own means. That game-playing/manipulation aspect was incredibly pronounced in this ep, but the fact that John is suddenly all hitch-in-throat emotional over Cameron's chipectomy, means he didn't see it after all and that makes him look a bit of an idiot as opposed to being clear-eyed. That just put some very funny images in my head. Maybe, after all the trouble with Riley, Sarah might be more willing to consider John/Cam a good thing but... naw, I just, actually, no I don't think she'd ever go for that. Possibly without the twitching and the lies and the potentially-murderous aspect, but even then it'd be a stretch. At the end of the day, Cam's "metal" and it's pretty black and white issue for Sarah. We get S3 and she might get to see shades of grey there, but not at the moment. Arrgh, forum has taken out most of the quotes... Bestest ever friend and not!sister that he lusts after, then? Yeah, god love 'em. It's a wonder they're still alive. I can give Sarah a pass with impulsivity, she's on the border-line of sanity most of the time when it comes to John. John Connor, I dunno, I thought he was past that. He was shown to be all methodical and intelligent and insightful in Today's the Day, but this - for me - was him taking a step backwards not forwards. The fact that Cam manipulated the jail break out of him doesn't help either. I think he truly expected Sarah to go with him. But then, when she obviously wasn't going to, it was a bit crappy to leave her behind with her ?cancer and Ellison. Actually, leaving her with Ellison was worse... "Everyone dies for me" - John's done a lot of maturing this season. From being a bitter little boy in the early eps to showing some mettle <ahem> in Goodbye to All That, to working through his issues with his mother (finally) and then to his bit ret-con set piece. He's lost a hell of a lot of his innocence and finally he loses Cameron. I can understand his desire to hang on to the things he's been left with, I just thought it was clumsy to add the ?cancer to the mix and then immediately have John leave Sarah to it. It didn't make him look awfully good. But then, I think that was a fault of the writing (which tried to add bloody everything into the mix) and no one came out of that ending looking particularly sensible.
|
|
|
Post by allergygal on May 9, 2009 13:56:23 GMT -5
Wow. I'm way far behind in this discussion already! (Although she does totally cheat at Bug Slug...) WHAT?!!!!!! The whole using her to get to him thing was a massive issue. But there's another problem with that - the "bad bitch" switch in Sarah. I thought we were supposed to see SMW as a turning point for Sarah, the point where she realised she did have the ability to protect John. Despite Sarah crossing that line and finally being willing to kill to protect John, that's only going to get her so far. She can't start killing Federal agents and she can't necessarily protect John from every Kaliba attack. So even though she ramped up her ability to protect him, the threat level went up too. That's why if the time jump scene had been at least partially about Sarah thinking it was safer for John to jump to the future (although I still think that's kind of dumb) it would've made more sense. And that's really where I think the time jumped scene failed. Sarah considered the human bond to be the important one. Jesse did too. So did Derek. We can probably take Jesse out of the equation, John didn't really know her - although the lengths she went to to try and prove her theory should have clued John in a little. But if the two people he is the closest to are both telling him the same thing, surely we're supposed to infer that this is the way for John to go. Season 2 spent a lot of time building that theme into the episodes, in the end Born to Run regressed John away from John Connor and straight back to post- Samson & Delilah John Baum. John making the choice to run after Cameron doesn't surprise me and I didn't think it was OOC for him. He'd had his big moment with Jesse when he decided John Connor is a heartless bastard who will do anything to win and he felt he was ready to embrace that. But he'd also made it quite clear during that meeting that he cared much more about Cameron than about Riley (which I think proved Jesse's point rather well). In fact his attachment to Cameron was so strong that even Sarah openly acknowledged it to Cameron (I have issues with that too, but that's another topic). So even though John turned his back on being John Connor, he did it because he loves Cameron and can't bear to be without her. I think he simply hit a point where he believed Cameron was the only "person" he could rely on. Derek died. Charley died. His mother was going to die. Riley deceived him. Derek deceived him. He mother lost faith in him. So screw the human race, I'll go be with my robot. It works in a twisted sort of way. He turned away from being John Connor to cling to the cyborg he felt was the only thing he could count on. Actually that doesn't work either since he knew she also deceived him regularly and she'd just ditched him. Okay, forget it. Nothing works with that damn time jump!
|
|
|
Post by littleb on May 9, 2009 15:09:49 GMT -5
Wow. I'm way far behind in this discussion already! Come on in. I'm tying myself in knots but still erring on the side of Born to Run being lacking in the writing department somewhat. Despite K8ie's valiant and highly convincing efforts... (Although she does totally cheat at Bug Slug...) Oh she totally does. She came home the other night and punched me three times cos she'd seen three bugs on the way to college! How is that fair?! On the plus side, the girl I work with regularly is totally crap at it, and I can categorically state that driving on blues whilst playing is funny, but a little dangerous Despite Sarah crossing that line and finally being willing to kill to protect John, that's only going to get her so far. She can't start killing Federal agents and she can't necessarily protect John from every Kaliba attack. So even though she ramped up her ability to protect him, the threat level went up too. I think they let the plot-point slide as well really. Or they just never found the opportunity to make it play again. There was that moment in Ourselves Alone with the gun, but after that, Sarah was Sarah. She threw herself in the line of fire a couple of times in Adam... and then beat up half of LAPD but I could see her doing that anyway even before SMW! For that to have been an issue, it needed to have been clearer. It would still have been a stupid thing to do, but at least it may have had some fuzzy-logic behind it. I still think fleeing to a safe house would have been far more sensible, it's not like they weren't about to do that anyways. I know Sarah has issues about being a threat/distraction to John but I'm not sure the writing/background was in place fully for her to be ok with him heading off without her. Plus the cancer thing also made no sense in terms of continuity. Sarah considered the human bond to be the important one. Jesse did too. So did Derek. But he'd also made it quite clear during that meeting that he cared much more about Cameron than about Riley (which I think proved Jesse's point rather well). In fact his attachment to Cameron was so strong that even Sarah openly acknowledged it to Cameron (I have issues with that too, but that's another topic). So even though John turned his back on being John Connor, he did it because he loves Cameron and can't bear to be without her. Which would be fine if he was anyone but John Connor. He doesn't see the bigger picture. In a worst case scenario, say they fail, how can he gain the trust of what's left of the human race if he's had metal by his side (sharing his bed?) for the past however many years? It's okay forming allegiances and joining up with Weaver in an effort to prevent the apocalpyse happening, but what if it does happen? We're set up characters to trust: Sarah, John, Charley, Derek. Even Jesse until her ulterior motives were revealed. They all told John the same thing - humans matter. By using the central characters to deliver that message, I assumed we were supposed to buy into that as a truth. Which is why BTR is so damn annoying when it negates that in a heartbeat. <LOL> You're harder on him than I am! Problem with Cam, he couldn't rely on her: "so deep down, you want to kill me." Which was probably the most idiotic reveal in the episode and put John straight back to 2X01; taking a stupid chance on Cameron. At least then he had Sarkissian messing with his head. She also blatantly manipulated everything John did in this one. She got him all touchy-feely despite knowing damn well there was nothing wrong with her core. She engineered Sarah's prison break because of Ellison's message and disappeared in John Henry to do... what? No, I'm still not convinced that John's safer in that future...
|
|
t101
Major
Posts: 716
|
Post by t101 on May 9, 2009 17:42:41 GMT -5
But he'd also made it quite clear during that meeting that he cared much more about Cameron than about Riley (which I think proved Jesse's point rather well). The reason he would not turn on Cameron if she killed Riley is not because he loves her so much that he would forgive her even that. It is because he knew Riley was lying, he knew she was from the future, he knew she was a threat, and hence knew perfectly well that everything Cameron said was true. He also knew what Cameron may do and do for a reason that was correct. And yet he told no one, he implicitly lied to Cameron when she confronted him about Riley, and generally did nothing until it was too late. The reason he would forgive Cameron is because he has no moral high ground over her in light of his own inaction. In his own words he knew Riley was in trouble and he feels guilty because he played a game with her life. And after having played a part in getting her killed intentionally or not how could he blame Cameron when he himself demonstrated so little regard for Riley's fate? I kinda had this line of thought confirmed by Ashley Miller in another forum. I think Jesse missed the fact that this wasn't about John's love for the robot but rather it was just fair. We're set up characters to trust: Sarah, John, Charley, Derek. Even Jesse until her ulterior motives were revealed. They all told John the same thing - humans matter. Just because he learned that humans matter doesn't mean he rejects Cameron. He also learned that they were all wrong about her, Sarah and Derek assumed her guilt, Jesse tried to set her up. Those people have told him "humans matter" but they have also been unfair to the robot. She might have known but he did not believe her. And maybe he made her doubt herself too. I though she only gave him what he wanted, proof.
|
|
|
Post by vicheron on May 9, 2009 18:31:05 GMT -5
Cameron's manipulations are necessary because they're things that John has to learn in order to become leader of the Resistance. John has to be able to get Kyle to fall in love with Sarah without telling him anything. He has to get the Resistance to accept his use of reprogrammed Terminators. He has to make sure that his soldiers follow their orders when going on missions where they don't know what the real objectives are. It is not enough for Cameron to be just a protector, she has to be John's teacher too. She said that she only follows orders from future John and I don't think she means the future John who reprogrammed her and sent her back. I think she means that she will only follow orders from this John Connor once he has proven that he can lead the Resistance.
|
|
k8ie
Corporal
Posts: 1,482
|
Post by k8ie on May 10, 2009 20:41:05 GMT -5
I believe our last discussion went, and I quote:
K8: I'm still right about the end of BTR. AG: No. K8: Yes. AG: NO. K8: YES. AG: Wrong. K8: So right. AG: No. K8: Yes... .
Rinse and repeat as necessary.
Oh, look: I disagree with the Chief again.
It's not a case of Sarah being willing to kill for John. It's a case of Sarah finding herself in a circumstance where she believes she has no other option. That's why she doesn't shoot Riley or Derek or Cameron - there are other options. Even though it might seem like the simple choice, doing the right thing is rarely either simple or easy.
|
|
|
Post by allergygal on May 10, 2009 20:45:17 GMT -5
I believe our last discussion went, and I quote: K8: I'm still right about the end of BTR. AG: No. K8: Yes. AG: NO. K8: YES.AG: Wrong. K8: So right. AG: No. K8: Yes... . Rinse and repeat as necessary. So true. North-going Zax and south-going Zax.
|
|