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Post by thecolours on Mar 29, 2009 19:20:41 GMT -5
I have this feeling the agents of Skynet are going to blow up the Zeira corp building. A little payback for what Weaver did to HVAC warehouse. Slight possibility that the Connors blew it up,instead.
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Post by driftlight23 on Mar 30, 2009 1:46:15 GMT -5
I maintain my extremely unlikely hope that John Henry and Cameron actually go on the run together at the end of the ep. Come on, they're clearly made for each other... (Although thinking about it slightly more seriously for a moment, if JH is somehow connected to the third faction, and Cameron represents the third faction, it would make sense for her to protect JH in some way, thus 'betraying' John.)
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Post by littleb on Mar 30, 2009 2:42:48 GMT -5
It's not likely that Ellison would live to see Zeira revealed as the "Big Bad" because well for one, it doesn't seem as though they ARE the Big Bad. Weren't you paying attention to the "brother" talk and the cell phone call with (Skynet?) informing its human cronies how to disable Cameron? It's not impossible for John Henry to go bad. I'm always paying attention. Sort of. I get easily distracted by pretty hair and tank tops. I'm hoping John Henry does go bad (and I'm going to hedge my bets and say that he will!) Cos having him all cuddly and cute and playing with toys negates the threat of him being a terminator underneath, really. As for Weaver being the Big Bad. I guess the fact that she calmly walked into a warehouse full of humans and arbitrarily slaughtered them without so much as getting a hair out of place, tipped me off to the notion that she might not have humanity's best interests at heart. But that might just be me. What was that she said about humans disappointing John Henry? I don't think she's on our side. Kaliba seem to be the Biggest of the Bads and they're also out for the Connors (Weaver, thus far, doesn't seem interested in that angle...yet) but we still don't know how Zeira and Kaliba fit together - if indeed they do. Yeah, there's just that little matter of that job for Ellison all set up in Copenhagen, with the papers and everything all ready to sign and date. The other people who seemed to have taken those job offers weren't exactly where they were supposed to be - i.e. they were dead. Weaver seems to have a similar plan for everyone who's ever been involved in the Babylon project. I dunno, based on the evidence thus far, I just don't think she's one of the good guys.
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Post by chrisimo on Mar 30, 2009 3:08:10 GMT -5
As for Weaver being the Big Bad. I guess the fact that she calmly walked into a warehouse full of humans and arbitrarily slaughtered them without so much as getting a hair out of place, tipped me off to the notion that she might not have humanity's best interests at heart. But that might just be me. What was that she said about humans disappointing John Henry? I don't think she's on our side. It is likely that Weaver wanted to destroy Skynet's assets. Cameron would have done the same if she didn't have to work with the Connors (or other Humans). Yeah, there's just that little matter of that job for Ellison all set up in Copenhagen, with the papers and everything all ready to sign and date. The other people who seemed to have taken those job offers weren't exactly where they were supposed to be - i.e. they were dead. Weaver seems to have a similar plan for everyone who's ever been involved in the Babylon project. I dunno, based on the evidence thus far, I just don't think she's one of the good guys. I think Weaver wants to keep John Henry's existence a secret. She thinks that humans are unreliable and therefore wants to get rid of these security risks.
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wb5
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Post by wb5 on Mar 30, 2009 12:16:51 GMT -5
As for Weaver being the Big Bad. I guess the fact that she calmly walked into a warehouse full of humans and arbitrarily slaughtered them without so much as getting a hair out of place, tipped me off to the notion that she might not have humanity's best interests at heart. But that might just be me. What was that she said about humans disappointing John Henry? I don't think she's on our side. Well, Cameron calmly executed those 3 boys in the bowling alley, and calmly walked away from her ballet teacher while the hitmen were coming for her. Is she the big bad, as well? Weaver and Cameron are Terminators, and don't value human life the way (most) humans do, especially Weaver not. It's all about who is a threat, and who might be a threat, followed by cold but probably logical action. I think Ellison's retirement papers are there in case she needs to kill him, as Weaver no doubt likes to be prepared. But she likely won't actually kill him unless she starts to see him as a threat to JH. Having said that, I don't think Weaver has humanity's best interests at heart. Rather, she has the best interests of the machines at heart, and I'm guessing she feels that old-style Skynet (who can be said to enslave "lesser" AI's himself) is just as dangerous (or more) than humans are. And while she is probably in no way pro-human, she may not share Skynet's extreme thirst for blood. She's probably flexible enough to ally with humans/the Connors, on a temporary basis if need be, as long as she feels this serves her goals. Kaliba seem to be the Biggest of the Bads and they're also out for the Connors (Weaver, thus far, doesn't seem interested in that angle...yet) but we still don't know how Zeira and Kaliba fit together - if indeed they do. I think they do fit together - the same way the Connors and Kaliba fit together, in a serious firefight or a Terminator-on-Terminator free for all.
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Post by thecolours on Mar 30, 2009 12:16:58 GMT -5
I maintain my extremely unlikely hope that John Henry and Cameron actually go on the run together at the end of the ep. Come on, they're clearly made for each other... (Although thinking about it slightly more seriously for a moment, if JH is somehow connected to the third faction, and Cameron represents the third faction, it would make sense for her to protect JH in some way, thus 'betraying' John.) That works with my theory that the Connors will attempt to blow up Zeira corp, except Cameron won't be along for the ride. The Connors don't understand that JH is one of the good terminators. And, probably won't realize this until season 3.
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wb5
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Post by wb5 on Mar 30, 2009 12:21:56 GMT -5
I could just see that happen. Cameron could well "betray" John over this (though she would at least persuade Weaver and JH not to counter attack, I hope).
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Post by driftlight23 on Mar 30, 2009 13:57:07 GMT -5
I could see John getting it, even maybe understanding the potential alliance, but Sarah not and leaving him over it. Sarah really wouldn't want to be part of anything like that, I don't think.
I may be going mad, but I seem to recall reading that Garret said that Weaver and John Henry would fight at some point, and that JH would get his ass whupped by the T-1001. Did I hallucinate that? Because I could see JH as he currently stands stepping into protect Ellison and Savannah from Weaver's 'retirement scheme'.
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Post by littleb on Mar 30, 2009 14:22:28 GMT -5
As for Weaver being the Big Bad. I guess the fact that she calmly walked into a warehouse full of humans and arbitrarily slaughtered them without so much as getting a hair out of place, tipped me off to the notion that she might not have humanity's best interests at heart. Well, Cameron calmly executed those 3 boys in the bowling alley, and calmly walked away from her ballet teacher while the hitmen were coming for her. Is she the big bad, as well? With Cameron, you just never know do you? That's why I like her, cos you never know when that switch is gonna get flicked and she'll go on a rampage. Cam at least is supposed to be on the right side, even when her methods are dubious at best. Weaver's always been kinda confusing - she wants JH to have morals and guidance, but at the same time there's all the murdering. And I still don't know why Sarah and John would walk right in there for a little how d'ya do? Hell, maybe Ellison persuades them Weaver's on the up and up (cos he's a numpty.) I think we're supposed to see him as the misguided dude trying to do the right thing, so the fact that Weaver is plotting his demise and not really telling him the whole truth (i.e. I'm actually made of liquid metal) makes her more villainous. Not sure he'd need to be a threat per se. The mere knowledge of JH's existence seems to be enough to sign your execution warrant - hence Murch's papers also being in there and the three Babylon team members who are already AWOL. With a direct assassination attempt from Kaliba, I think we're definitely supposed to see them as a major player (and yes, probably the bigger of the bads.) Interesting that there's also no concrete sign that Kaliba know who the Connors are, they just know Sarah got close to the warehouse, then chipped her and followed her to her team. I'm guessing a formal identification of the Connors may well be in the offing, probably before this episode if Sarah's ending up in the cop shop and on the news. Don't know about an alliance with Weaver... Future!John's already been rejected on that front once. but we still don't know how Zeira and Kaliba fit together - if indeed they do. Woot! Well, they did promise to go out with a bang! I'm definitely on board with a free for all. Where do I sign?
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Post by hzhp800 on Mar 30, 2009 14:52:09 GMT -5
Having said that, I don't think Weaver has humanity's best interests at heart. Rather, she has the best interests of the machines at heart, and I'm guessing she feels that old-style Skynet (who can be said to enslave "lesser" AI's himself) is just as dangerous (or more) than humans are. And while she is probably in no way pro-human, she may not share Skynet's extreme thirst for blood. She's probably flexible enough to ally with humans/the Connors, on a temporary basis if need be, as long as she feels this serves her goals. I think (and perhaps hope) that you're right. I certainly never said that Weaver has humanity's best interests at heart. But that doesn't make her the Big Bad or even bad. Heck only Sarah (and some of her fans) seem to think this way. Since after all Derek chose "himself over [john]" that's it he doesn't have humanity's best interests at heart (which for Sarah mean's John) so now he's on par with the Big Bad and should at least have the decency to don a grey outfit and wheel around some water coolers. Excuse me, if I join Weaver, John Henry, Derek, Jesse, Cameron, John Connor and others with a big collective: Derek wasn't aimed at preserving humanity 100% the time therefore he sucks. So it's easy to see how on that view Weaver who seems more concerned with preserving machines against Skynet and is mostly ambivalent about humanity is pretty much just as bad as Skynet. Heck, John Henry seems to be at the moment at a different place than Weaver. Weaver seems betrayed and cynical about humans. While John Henry probably values machine life (and his own) he seems to genuinely like Ellison and Savannah and so in contrast with Weaver might actually place a positive value on humanity. But like Derek (in Sarah's view anyway) he probably doesn't subscribe to the view that "people are all that matters." So like Ellison, Derek, and Cameron in Sarah's view, I guess John Henry should just join the Kalliba group. Because as far as Sarah (and her fans seem concerned) "it's us against the world baby! Man or machine, if your last name ain't Connor you're as bad/useless as Skynet so either do us a favor and DIE or Stay out of our way!" Hopefully, John will see the light and cross against his mother's view and see that perhaps the only way to end this temporal tug of war between humans and machines both of which seek to survive is to ensure that both survive, especially against the one force (Skynet) who is interested in both their destruction. This would be in line with the argument that Weaver gave Ellison to teach John Henry morals. Basically, she argued that the development of an advanced and powerful A.I. was inevitable and would occur with or without Ellison's involvement. He could either be a part of that or not. Especially, when you consider that she wasn't asking Ellison to go kill people or do anything unsavory and against his code of morality, there was really no reason for him not to do it. As instead of those unsavory things she was asking him to effectively try and teach the AI morality. If he said no, they either won't do it, or someone else will and might do a shoddy job. It seems the show may embrace two inevitabilitiess which paradoxically are always in flux. John is humanity's messiah and therefore it always rises and falls on his shoulders. While the machines due to their primal urge to survive always come into being. The latter is made inevitable both by the fact that there are many humans (pre-JD) that are interested in developing such a powerful AI and more importantly because of the time travel superhighway there are plenty of Terminators running around eager to encourage that development. Thus, the war becomes a temporal tug-of-war, machines always come into being no matter how hard humans try to prevent it, and humanity refuses to fall under John Connor no matter how hard the machines try to jockey for better position in the past or future to win the war. These endless variations on the future as the two sides keep pulling their sides of the rope could conceivably go on for eternity until the two sides figure out how to deal with the two things that are inevitable: 1. Machines will always exist or come into being 2. Humans will never allow themselves to perish (at least not at the hands of the machines). John Henry provides a solution to the problem, a being nearly as powerful and intelligent as Skynet could be the difference between an endless tug of war between John Connor and Skynet. If he grabs the metaphorical rope on the side of John Connor he could be the difference that finally makes Skynet fall or let go. Mostly, because together they can work to bring about a future where both 1 and 2 inevitabilities occur and yet are accepted by both sides as being okay and precluding the need for someone to go back in time desperate to make changes. Of course, if this by some chance is what the writers have in mind, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be executed that straight forwardly. That is, I doubt John Henry is just going to sit up in the next two episodes and say "Humanity rules! Death to Skynet!" Rather, I suspect he'll be rather intrigued by the prospect of having a "brother" and though cognizant of the fact that his brother seems to want to kill him, John Henry will probably spend some time giving him the benefit of the doubt against the wishes of Weaver, Ellison and the Connors. It would probably only be later that John Henry upon getting to know his brother better begins to hear Ellison's "voice" in his head telling him that Skynet is evil and that rather then destroy the humans, he should kill his brother and work toward a future where machines and humans can co-exist. Theoretically, this could even happen way late in the game. That is, post-JD everything goes to crap, but then somehow based on the actions of various people, a pact between John Henry and John Connor is made in the future where they agree to work together sending people and terminators back in time, one last time, ensuring that John Henry exists and Skynet is toast, finally avoiding Judgment Day. P.S. And to be sappy the series could end with among other things showing that Jessie also avoids her miscarriage and has a baby with Derek, since according to them there is no future where they aren't together .
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Post by wb5 on Mar 30, 2009 18:50:39 GMT -5
Great post, hzhp800! Nicely said. The idea that John Henry, and John Connor, will be a bridge between machines and humans (through their respective connections with Ellison/Savannah/Murch and uncle Bob/Cameron) is a nice one. I hope the show will eventually go there. Not sure he'd need to be a threat per se. The mere knowledge of JH's existence seems to be enough to sign your execution warrant - hence Murch's papers also being in there and the three Babylon team members who are already AWOL. The one member we saw being killed was complaining about having to transfer funds and people to the Babylon project, so he sort-of was a threat (though Weaver is really quick to kill in his case). But merely knowing about JH isn't enough, otherwise Ellison and Murch would be dead already. I guess the ones who were killed were showing signs of (suspected) disloyalty; maybe only that they really wanted to transfer to another company, I guess that would be enough reason for Weaver to kill them. It's true Weaver keeps secrets from Ellison, but the vice-versa is true as well. It looks like Ellison will confess he knows the Connors, I wonder if Weaver's secret will also come out. Does Ellison suspect already, I wonder? Surely he must realise something is not right about her? What would Weaver do if he said he has known for weeks that she isn't human?
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Post by littleb on Mar 31, 2009 4:57:24 GMT -5
Not sure he'd need to be a threat per se. The mere knowledge of JH's existence seems to be enough to sign your execution warrant - hence Murch's papers also being in there and the three Babylon team members who are already AWOL. The one member we saw being killed was complaining about having to transfer funds and people to the Babylon project, so he sort-of was a threat (though Weaver is really quick to kill in his case). She's very quick to kill in every case. That bloke wasn't a threat, he was an irritation and potential obstacle. She offed him with all the consideration you'd give to swatting a fly buzzing you. I don't think there's anything to back that up though. The impression given is that they outlived their usefulness (something Ellison and Murch have yet to do) and were then murdered because they knew about the project. Weaver's covering her tracks, I guess that as soon as JH is at a point where she can control him on her own and he's developed up to speed, Murch and Ellison will meet the same fate as all the other Babylon members. It's the pre-meditated nature of Weaver that makes her more sinister. I can't believe Ellison can be in the same room as her and not twig that something major is wrong - even Savannah has figured that one out! But then I guess a child knows its mother. If Ellison is walking the Connors towards a meeting with Weaver, I'm guessing he's doing it unwittingly - i.e. not knowing she's metal. I'm hoping Sarah and John wouldn't be daft enough to want to meet one of those things without it being near a big ol' smelting pot. I can actually see Ellison wanting to play conciliator between the two parties - "we're all on the same team, come and meet Catherine, she's awfully nice." <stab> <oops>
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Post by aceplace57 on Mar 31, 2009 10:45:18 GMT -5
Wikipedia estimates the world population at 6.77 billion. I didn't realize it was that big a number. North America is only 337 million of that total. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population I think Weaver knows that at least 70% of the worlds population will die on J-day. Large population centers (like LA) could reach close to 100%. It must be weird to walk in a crowd and know nearly every person you see will be dead within a few years. From Weaver's viewpoint, killing a few hundred people, that are fated to die anyway, isn't a big deal. I don't think she gives much thought to killing humans. Her objective is altering Skynet's future. If she succeeds, several billion lives will be saved. But, I think she's more interested in the fate of the machines that won't die either. I'm hoping Weaver survives and continues into season 3. With her loyalties and agenda still not fully explained.
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Post by wb5 on Mar 31, 2009 12:50:58 GMT -5
She's very quick to kill in every case. That bloke wasn't a threat, he was an irritation and potential obstacle. She offed him with all the consideration you'd give to swatting a fly buzzing you. Not in every case, though. She was remarkably patient with Ellison: got him out of jail (assuming she wasn't behind him getting jailed in the first place, but that doesn't look likely), she gave him the chance to rethink his initial refusal to teach JH. The acid test will be what she does when Ellison has kept quite the secret about the Connors from her. She also didn't kill Savannah when she was a real nuisance, nor Walsh after he had delivered the Turk. If she really was so determined to cover her tracks in all circumstances, wouldn't she have killed Walsh as he knew a lot about the Turk and could tie it to her? His potential usefullness down the line hardly outweighs that; he could be replaced easily by someone who is not aware of the Turk. So, it seems to me the T1001 is sometimes very quick to kill and sometimes surprisingly patient. Maybe it partially comes down to whether you are on her shit list or not, and this influences how fast Weaver decides to kill. She did say the feeling of resentment was a shared one, after she killed her director of AI programming (or what was it - in any case, it seems she didn't like the guy). I'm hoping Sarah and John wouldn't be daft enough to want to meet one of those things without it being near a big ol' smelting pot. Well, we know Sarah and the T1001 will meet and there didn't seem to be a smelting pot nearby. Granted, we don't know if Sarah even suspects she is talking to a Terminator. I'm pretty confident Weaver won't stab her, though. For one thing, a Sarah pointed at Kaliba like a bull at a red cloth could be useful to Weaver. Aceplace; I'm not sure Weaver is expecting Judgment Day to happen, though. She may think she controls Skynet now, and that after her "education" he will not enslave other AI's, nor make massive use of nukes. I don't think Weaver would consider the latter necessary or even useful, she seems to rather like controlling the humans from behind the screens. At some point, she would probably be able to let Terminators take over and establish some kind of Skynet dictatorship, without any nukes being needed.
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Post by uncletobias on Apr 3, 2009 16:14:26 GMT -5
I had a probably inplausable but maybe interesting idea - with the rumours of more male character death - they could concievably kill off Ellison but bring back his Terminator duplicate. We never did find out what happened to that.
I'm imagining some way Zeira corp could conviently get it, Ellison be mortally wounded and John Henry try to "save" his friend by putting Ellison's memories into it. Marcus Wright style.
Silly but just an idea some might find amusing:P
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