k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on May 1, 2009 17:20:43 GMT -5
I'm basing my argument on what Brian Austin Green said in an interview. He's the one who confirmed that this is an alternate timeline and that Derek is the leader of the Resistance. Well, while I'm not trying to disrespect Mr. Green, his interpretation of Derek's role in the plot and what ended up on screen have not always been synonynmous in the past so, until it ends up onscreen, I consider it speculative. And even if Derek did lead the resistance, the whole point of John and Sarah's mission is that they're playing for all the marbles. The resistance or Derek's cell of it is insignificant against the greater goal of preventing Judgement Day. Actually, it doesn't cause any because this is clearly an orphan future created when John Connor isn't there to lead the resistance. So, unless Josh Friedman's idea was to show that John is ultimately irrelevant (and hence Sarah is irrelevant) and everything that happened since the openning scene of The Terminator didn't mean a thing, clearly John will have to go back to the present era. As soon as that happens, this future where no one knows John Connor (assuming the dialogue in the final scene can be taken at face value) vanishes. So, Kyle or Derek could travel back in time from that future to 2009 without changing the past.
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Post by vicheron on May 1, 2009 22:36:16 GMT -5
I'm basing my argument on what Brian Austin Green said in an interview. He's the one who confirmed that this is an alternate timeline and that Derek is the leader of the Resistance. Well, while I'm not trying to disrespect Mr. Green, his interpretation of Derek's role in the plot and what ended up on screen have not always been synonynmous in the past so, until it ends up onscreen, I consider it speculative. And even if Derek did lead the resistance, the whole point of John and Sarah's mission is that they're playing for all the marbles. The resistance or Derek's cell of it is insignificant against the greater goal of preventing Judgement Day. By that logic, future John should have gone into the past. However, that has not happened once in the three different timelines that have existed. In fact, we've never seen any Resistance leaders go back into the past. It's always been the soldiers. The most obvious explanation is that the leadership can't go back because if the attempt to change the timeline fails, the Resistance will need them. Then what was the point of Kyle having that picture of Sarah and getting sent back in the last timeline? Unless there's a time loop, then they would have ended up with two Terminators and two Kyles in 1984. Or three since Kyle got sent back in Jesse's timeline too.
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on May 2, 2009 1:20:28 GMT -5
Well, while I'm not trying to disrespect Mr. Green, his interpretation of Derek's role in the plot and what ended up on screen have not always been synonynmous in the past so, until it ends up onscreen, I consider it speculative. And even if Derek did lead the resistance, the whole point of John and Sarah's mission is that they're playing for all the marbles. The resistance or Derek's cell of it is insignificant against the greater goal of preventing Judgement Day. By that logic, future John should have gone into the past. However, that has not happened once in the three different timelines that have existed. In fact, we've never seen any Resistance leaders go back into the past. It's always been the soldiers. The most obvious explanation is that the leadership can't go back because if the attempt to change the timeline fails, the Resistance will need them. That's not true: in T2 & T3, soldiers were sent back because the mission was to protect Sarah and John. But the mission has changed from protecting the future leader of the resistance to eliminating the need for the resistance. Also, using your own argument, either Derek's the leader of this resistance cell or he isn't. If he is, then he can send Kyle on missions as necessary. That doesn't follow unless you assume multiple simultaneous, branching timelines, which we've not seen IMO. I'm talking about a single timeline that is constantly being overwritten by time-travel. Therefore, when John goes back to the present, which he has to do otherwise the whole premise of the Terminator story is meaningless, the future we saw at the end of BTR will cease to exist (but it can't cease to exist until John goes back in time to grow up, possibly live through Judgement Day, etc.). What I think JF & co have done is create the possibility of a paradox where a Kyle Reese from a future that will never exist travels back in time to the past ahead of John. That Derek still had memories of Andy Goode despite killing him in 2007 and that Jesse didn't, I believe, sets a precedent for such a paradox to occur in the story (if the original "Kyle is John's father and John apparently knew it" from the first movie wasn't enough of one).
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Post by vicheron on May 2, 2009 16:56:45 GMT -5
By that logic, future John should have gone into the past. However, that has not happened once in the three different timelines that have existed. In fact, we've never seen any Resistance leaders go back into the past. It's always been the soldiers. The most obvious explanation is that the leadership can't go back because if the attempt to change the timeline fails, the Resistance will need them. That's not true: in T2 & T3, soldiers were sent back because the mission was to protect Sarah and John. But the mission has changed from protecting the future leader of the resistance to eliminating the need for the resistance. Also, using your own argument, either Derek's the leader of this resistance cell or he isn't. If he is, then he can send Kyle on missions as necessary. I'm talking about the TSCC timelines where they have been trying to prevent Judgment Day. Derek's team was sent back to kill Skynet. Why didn't future John or Perry or any of the Resistance leadership choose to lead that team? If Derek is the leader of the Resistance then it is likely that Kyle is also a high ranking officer. Even if there is a single rewritable timeline, there should be at least two Kyles and two Terminators in 1984. Derek still has memories of Andy Goode despite killing him, which means that when he rewrote the future it didn't affect him. It also means that there's a new Derek in the new future that can be sent back to a time where the original Derek still exists. If Derek in the Johnless future gets sent back to 2007, there would be two Dereks, or three if you count the high school one, since people who get sent back are not affected by a change in the future. By that logic, there would be two Kyles and two Terminators since we have the Kyle sent back to 1984 in the very first timeline in T1 and another who gets sent back to 1984 in the first TSCC timeline. There's also the problem of John not having to go back to a time after he left. He could go back to a week before when he left with John Henry so that he could prevent the original Derek from being killed and prevent Cameron from giving her chip to John Henry since future John Henry already has her chip.
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k8ie
Corporal
Posts: 1,482
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Post by k8ie on May 3, 2009 19:33:55 GMT -5
I'm talking about the TSCC timelines where they have been trying to prevent Judgment Day. Derek's team was sent back to kill Skynet. Why didn't future John or Perry or any of the Resistance leadership choose to lead that team? Yes, that's what I think.
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Post by aceplace57 on May 4, 2009 15:40:20 GMT -5
I'm hoping they keep Derek and Kyle true to their characters. The future world is made up of survivors. People hardened by the realities of death all around them. I definitely don't want these people wet nursing a scared runny nosed John Connor. If I see Derek taking the 'new kid' under his wing, I'll barf all over my tv. John has two choices. Cower with the tunnel rats (Riley) or grow some cojones and fight. The moment he steps out of that basement he'll be hunted. Any human is a target for the skynet work camps or extermination. If John is lucky, he'll be put into a group of civilians and given some sort of job. It's going to take time to learn how to survive before he can start fighting. I can see Weaver watching in the background. She needs to see that John Connor really has special leadership qualities. John will have to earn her support. Trying to kill John Henry, for Cameron's chip, will not endear him to Weaver. I hope the 'Let's Rescue Cameron's Chip' story gets tossed out a window. That's even stupider than the Spock's brain episode of Star Trek. This is such a great way for John Connor to finally become a soldier. I want to see him spend at least a year or two fighting. Maybe then, he could return to 2009 on a military mission to stop skynet. John Connor will accept a special mission just like Kyle did. He'll return (maybe with John Henry & Weaver) knowing who to fight. I'll be extremely disappointed if John returns to 2009 in the first episode of S3. It'll seem so pointless. I hate cheap tricks in stories. Josh put these characters in the future for a reason. They aren't there to say "hello" and then go home.
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Post by allergygal on May 5, 2009 3:49:12 GMT -5
I'm hoping they keep Derek and Kyle true to their characters. The future world is made up of survivors. People hardened by the realities of death all around them. I definitely don't want these people wet nursing a scared runny nosed John Connor. If I see Derek taking the 'new kid' under his wing, I'll barf all over my tv. Judging from Derek's pleasant demeanor and Kyle looking all tough when he walked up, it could be that this time around, Derek has the kind eyes. Even so, "taking the new kid under his wing" kind of thing would be rather unrealistic considering how many random tunnel rats are probably running around. I really doubt John's going to be in the future very long, though. I tend to think his time there is more about understanding the importance of being John Connor, not learning how to be a future war soldier.
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Post by Erika on May 5, 2009 14:30:41 GMT -5
Does everyone realize that in the future here, Riley could be back? John didn't get a chance to save her the first time around and feels guilty about it. I can see him finding her and wanting to make amends, even though she'd have no idea who he was or why he'd be interested in her.
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t101
Major
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Post by t101 on May 5, 2009 15:49:56 GMT -5
Bringing all these characters back by whatever means cheapens their deaths.
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on May 5, 2009 22:17:21 GMT -5
Does everyone realize that in the future here, Riley could be back? John didn't get a chance to save her the first time around and feels guilty about it. I can see him finding her and wanting to make amends, even though she'd have no idea who he was or why he'd be interested in her. AIGH! No. More. Riley. Do I have to kill her myself? It's science fiction. I say use all the tools available. "Cheap" is in execution and payoff not in the idea itself.
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Post by allergygal on May 6, 2009 0:17:56 GMT -5
John running into Riley would be pushing the coincidences too far. She was just a tunnel rat, scurrying about for scraps and hiding in the shadows. And I don't see her life turning out any different in this future unless judgement day happened later.
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Post by vicheron on May 6, 2009 0:44:38 GMT -5
The Resistance should be losing the war. The whole series is based on the idea that John Connor is supposed to be the one who saves humanity from the machines. Riley should be dead. The Resistance should be losing badly. Derek, Kyle, and their merry little band should be the (very) few very lucky ones who haven't been wiped out by Skynet.
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Post by allergygal on May 6, 2009 1:15:57 GMT -5
Normally, I would agree with that, but this is a messed up future and I don't think we can be sure what's going on. Not only did John take himself out of the forming-and-leading-the-resistance equation, we have this whole Weaver/JH/Cam thing in the mix. I would still expect the resistance to be failing, but I do think there's the possibility the resistance could actually be doing okay until the Weaver/JH/Cam plan goes into effect (that's sure to turn out bad).
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on May 6, 2009 14:44:42 GMT -5
Well, Cam's certainly going to be ticked to find out she completed her mission to the past only to have no John Connor to report to.
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Post by vicheron on May 6, 2009 15:56:29 GMT -5
If Skynet really has a problem with rogue Terminators then there should be no rogue Terminator faction in this future. Without John Connor to lead the Resistance, Skynet should be annihilating the humans, which means that it'll have more than enough resources to deal with any potential rebellion. Not to mention the fact that Skynet wouldn't even have to put more experimental and dangerous technology to use if it's winning the war with what it already has.
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