equustel
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Post by equustel on Sept 25, 2008 13:43:25 GMT -5
roseredscare: That's when you know it's a show worthy of fandom - when the barrage of character questions becomes almost too thick to manage.
Personally, while I'd like a lot of those questions answered outright on the show, I hope a lot of the more subtle emotional ones aren't spelled out and dumbed down. (Especially since I'm not sure Derek himself knows the answers to half of those questions.) I like that so much is left up to the actors in this show - I trust them to carry the weight of what's left unsaid.
Besides, some of these people just aren't inclined to pour out their deepest feelings and concerns to each other - Derek least of all. I'm sure he'll get explored properly this season (they know the character is too good to ignore), but I don't mind the mystique of certain things remaining intact.
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equustel
Refugee
noise for your eyes
Posts: 26
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Post by equustel on Sept 25, 2008 18:45:33 GMT -5
Guess I'm more easily sold than some.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Sept 28, 2008 5:36:53 GMT -5
I agree that Derek is a seriously good character for this show. His only real problem is that he's totally focused on protecting John and Sarah and stopping Skynet, but he tends to think "tactically", not "strategically." John has to learn to think strategically, and I'm not sure Derek is the one to teach him. And I'm pretty sure Sarah isn't either.
They call Derek a "senior commander of the Resistance" in the title voice over, yet in "D&D" we saw officers over him - and even THEY didn't know everything future John was up to.
They need to put someone on the show who can get John Connor ready to take on Skynet strategically, and/or show John Connor learning that on his own. To some degree, they did that in episode one when John made the decision to reactivate Cameron. As James Middleton put it in an interview, John Connor has "embraced the enemy." Episode one was where we first saw the sort of decision making that led to his using reprogrammed Terminators in the future, despite Cameron's warning that it would be dangerous both to use reactivated Terminators and because of the reaction of humans to that decision.
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roseredscare
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Post by roseredscare on Sept 29, 2008 11:29:11 GMT -5
Apart from emotional reasons, how was that a good "strategical" decision in any way, shape, or form? That was the dumbest and riskiest thing John has done since the show started.
And you can be a senior commander and still have officers above you. Derek commanded his own unit making him a senior officer but there were still plenty of officers above him.
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Post by Derek Reese on Sept 29, 2008 13:49:22 GMT -5
Considering we're at a point in present time, where there are no commanders at all except it comes down to the group decision at hand. Derek's always going to be fully capable of saying what he wants and the same goes for Sarah, but it was John's clear choice on the matter. No one else's and he made that vividly clear, when it came down to putting it back into her head.
It can really be observed two different ways:
1) The first is the emotional, which is sort of a given.
But since we're talking so heavily military.
2) There's the principle of leaving no man behind, which comes and goes based on the individuals in operation. Clearly, John wasn't letting Cameron, even with the risks involved. Something he even offered to repair, but Cameron denies as such.
But.........if I can continue to go even further into this discussion, I'll be pulling more into John's territory. This is again, a Derek Reese thread. So let's keep things focused there.
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roseredscare
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Post by roseredscare on Sept 29, 2008 15:03:19 GMT -5
I would go on my rant about how much I hate John's decision and all the things wrong with it but that's for the John Connor thread and I don't feel like retreading that very sour topic today. I just think it made him very unlikable and it will take a lot for the character to win me back after his awfully stupid actions.
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Post by Derek Reese on Sept 29, 2008 15:48:11 GMT -5
roseredscare: That's when you know it's a show worthy of fandom - when the barrage of character questions becomes almost too thick to manage. Personally, while I'd like a lot of those questions answered outright on the show, I hope a lot of the more subtle emotional ones aren't spelled out and dumbed down. (Especially since I'm not sure Derek himself knows the answers to half of those questions.) I like that so much is left up to the actors in this show - I trust them to carry the weight of what's left unsaid. Besides, some of these people just aren't inclined to pour out their deepest feelings and concerns to each other - Derek least of all. I'm sure he'll get explored properly this season (they know the character is too good to ignore), but I don't mind the mystique of certain things remaining intact. Sums up my feelings for the character as well.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Sept 30, 2008 5:55:16 GMT -5
Roseredscare: Reread what I said in the last sentence. John's decision was "strategic". I don't think it as completely emotional at all. Major emotional, perhaps - decisions like that always are because John is human and doesn't think like a machine (or even a Transhuman) - but still the kind of "off the rails" strategic decision that will make Connor successful in the future. And to focus on Derek again, Derek is the one who can't see past his hatred and fear of Cameron to see why keeping her around is a valid strategic decision regardless of the risk. And neither can Sarah. John is the only one who has that potential - but Derek and Sarah are not helping, they're hindering his development in that regard. However, given the glitches we've seen in episode four, John - or Josh - really DOES need to do something to address that situation before the Caminator goes off the rails again and jeopardizes their mission by either trying to kill him again or doing something that gets them all killed or arrested. That part I agree with - if Josh is going to use these glitches to tell stories, he has to realize that at some point everyone in the audience will think it's ridiculous to keep this whacked out machine around. So I suspect Josh will resolve that problem at some point - even if just by suddenly having Cameron declare she's "self-repaired" herself. To focus on Derek again, however, he's not going to buy it. I'm really looking forward to seeing the Caminator get fed up with Derek at some point - hey, she showed the Terminator equivalent of "irritation" last week when John evaded her ;D ;D - and bounce Derek off some walls in some future episode. I liked the look she gave John in episode four, too, when he told her he'd be back in half an hour - then he had to say "Thirty minutes - I swear" because she didn't believe him! That cracked me up! As will Derek getting punched out!
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roseredscare
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Post by roseredscare on Oct 1, 2008 19:47:13 GMT -5
Roseredscare: Reread what I said in the last sentence. John's decision was "strategic". I don't think it as completely emotional at all. Major emotional, perhaps - decisions like that always are because John is human and doesn't think like a machine (or even a Transhuman) - but still the kind of "off the rails" strategic decision that will make Connor successful in the future. Cameron tried to kill him and he reactivated her without any proof that she wouldn't just keep on doing what she was doing the last time her chip was in, which was to kill him . All odds said she was going to kill him! It was only an unforeseen fluke (and there was no clear reason for why that fluke occurred) that she didn't. Sure it's a strategic advantage to have a reprogrammed terminator but if it's going to kill you then that's pretty useless, isn't? They have everything to lose if John is killed by some rogue reprogrammed Terminator and if having Cameron around jeopardizes John's safety than Cameron no longer has a purpose to exist as far as I'm concerned. How could John's choice not have been anything other than an extremely stupid emotional one? I disagree. Derek maybe had wanted to get rid of Cameron initially (he didn't trust she was really on their side) but by What He Beheld he understood the significant advantages of having her around. Note: His "You have no idea what you're people are walking into" line to Sark when he threatened to kidnap John at the museum. Derek will always hate Cameron and he'll always keep an eye on her but he's accepted that she is an effective weapon. Now I wouldn't say "regardless of risk" though. A big deadly guard dog is nice to have but if they could attack you at any moment than that dog needs to be put down. John's blind trust in Cameron is befuddling. If John is ready and willing to trust so quickly all the time like it seems on the show then he's not going to be the commander of anything because he'll be dead! He needs a good healthy dose of paranoia like Sarah and Derek.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Oct 2, 2008 1:16:24 GMT -5
I don't think Derek has accepted anything about Cameron. The day after John resurrected her, Derek was back to his snarking about Cameron: "Bitch is nothing but wire...It's only a matter of time".
And John wasn't interested, because he had already decided that Cameron is more important to him than Derek, despite her glitches.
John is not happy at all with Cameron at this point, especially after last episode. Which is why I say he might be tempted to try to fix her regardless of whether she likes it or not. But he still recognizes her absolute value to the team.
I (and Cameron ;D) agree that he took a huge risk reactivating her. But it wasn't stupid or even (completely) emotional. He took a RISK. And that's entirely different. Because of his recognition of her immense value to him - and undoubtedly also because of his emotional attachment, that's true - he decided it was worth the risk. It's that simple. I might have done it differently than he did to give me rather more security in the process, but I can't fault his decision to try one last time to keep her around.
However, as I've said, if she keeps screwing up like last episode, he's going to have to do something about fixing her before she gets them all arrested or killed. Or Josh is going to have to get her fixed on her own before her glitches get to be ridiculous. Comedy is comedy and drama is drama, but this machine needs to get back on track so the story can move forward.
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roseredscare
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Post by roseredscare on Oct 2, 2008 9:37:02 GMT -5
I don't think Derek has accepted anything about Cameron. The day after John resurrected her, Derek was back to his snarking about Cameron: "Bitch is nothing but wire...It's only a matter of time". I would expect nothing less because that was after the slightly important event where she tried to kill John! Derek's right. If she's gone bad once she can do it again and do it when they least suspect. For all their safety it would be the best idea to get rid of her. This makes me seethe. How can John value a robot who has tried to kill him above his own family? He has seriously screwed up priorities and makes me respect him even less. Family should always take priority over robot girlfriends. I could say throwing myself off Niagara Falls in a barrel is a risk but that doesn't mean it's a risk worth taking. At the point he reactivated Cameron there was far more to lose than gain. He only did it because he wanted his robot girlfriend back. For all he knew she may have gone nuts and killed his entire family as well if she hadn't magically being normal again. He not only risked himself in that suicide move but he also risked his entire family which sickens me.
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Oct 2, 2008 15:09:25 GMT -5
Whose to say Cameron Magically returned to normal.
Perhaps she chose to reinstate Johns programming to make him feel safe and justified about what he did.
All the while knowing she has her original program a swith of directives away.
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roseredscare
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Post by roseredscare on Oct 2, 2008 17:12:32 GMT -5
And then Cameron goes and tells Sarah that Sarah should never let John risk himself to save her again. That makes perfect sense.
For all we could tell Cameron's recovery was magical because we saw no indication that anything was done to fix her.
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Post by Derek Reese on Oct 2, 2008 17:24:56 GMT -5
Either that or she's playing the Connor's. Can't honestly see Derek fully trusting her.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Oct 4, 2008 22:31:51 GMT -5
People are operating on the assumption that John reactivated her because of his emotional attachment.
Folks, that's an ASSUMPTION. It's just as much an assumption as my belief that he did it because he made a strategic decision that he need this machine.
We don't really know which way it was. Maybe we'll find out later. Maybe not.
We can only go by how Josh and the writers write the scene, the directors direct the scene, and the actors play the scene.
And for that scene, I saw nothing romantic about John. What I saw was a guy who decided to stand up to his mother and his uncle and make his own decision about how to protect his life. The clear and forceful statement: "She saved my life! She SAVES my life!" I think indicates what was motivating Connor at that point.
Yes, there undoubtedly was some emotional attachment. But I think he was rational enough, if stressed out and practically in PTSD, to not be thinking about sex with a machine at that point, especially - as everyone points out - after she just tried to kill him.
I don't see John as a masochist. I think the whole point of his transformation at that point and subsequently is to show him taking on the qualities of the great leader he will become.
Reactivating his "love doll" doesn't seem to fit that concept...so I have to guess that wasn't the intent of the writers, however some people might interpret it.
"Teenage rebellion", yes, that's part of it. That isn't all of it.
These actors would be a lot less interesting if we could assume that we always know what's going on in their minds. I don't think we know what the writers are putting in John's mind any more than we know what's going on in Cameron's mind.
The probability here is that John was making a decision based on his belief in the value of Cameron, not his emotional attraction to her.
Now, if they do something with the Allison character that changes that perception, we'll have to rethink it. That would be hard to justify, though, given that Allison doesn't even exist yet in the present. Just the idea that John was influenced by Cameron being modeled after some woman John doesn't even know yet is not a strong concept.
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