Rift
Refugee
Posts: 44
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Post by Rift on Mar 7, 2009 0:35:35 GMT -5
No need to apologize dude. I personally could have done without that line.
Now, here's my question. What's everyone's opinion of Derek questioning Jesse in such a way that it furthers the idea of them coming from two different timelines? I know some people from another board, although I was not one of them, were dead set against the idea. For that matter, what did you guys think of the Derek/Jesse interactions in general?
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Post by aceplace57 on Mar 7, 2009 1:06:00 GMT -5
Very good episode. The series is beginning to pick up steam. We got some of the best scenes with Cameron and John since S1. I wasn't surprised at Riley's fighting skills. She came from a time that required fighting to survive. Even a scrap of bread might require taking someone out.
The only issue I had was Riley confronting Jesse. Riley was a survivor that fought and clawed her way through life. I think Riley would have taken the first bus to Canada. Leave the scary robot and Jesse far behind. I realize Riley needed to die. I would have preferred Jesse initiating the fight. She follows Riley to the bus station and drags out for the confrontation.
I'm beginning to wonder if this Jesse has a background as a rebel fighter. She didn't seem comfortable helping Derek with a routine military operation. Her hand to hand fighting skills are weak. Is this the Jesse that fought side by side with Derek?
Sarah dropped the ball. Why didn't she notice there were two different counselors? She should have at least casually mentioned Jesse's name and made sure the other lady knew her. The poop will hit the fan after Riley's body is found. That second social services lady will be all over the Baums.
It's great seeing the show getting stronger and stronger. Those Terminator of the week episodes are becoming a distant memory.
Cameron - "All you have to do is hit the switch."
Uh sweetheart, there's three buttons in that watch. Which one works? ;D Also, what's the range on that wireless transmitter? Future John needs to put a destruct in all the Terms he reprograms.
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k8ie
Corporal
Posts: 1,482
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Post by k8ie on Mar 7, 2009 1:12:45 GMT -5
I love that we see Jesse and Sarah meet and Jesse's motives remain just as ambiguous as ever.
So on the one hand you have Derek Reese, who's the anti-Kyle, the brother without the kind eyes, the one who doesn't worship at the church of John and Sarah Connor but, even so, Derek can't resist a moment of... well, I call it *squee* when he meets The Legendary Sarah Connor.
But Jesse... Jesse's working a con but there's nothing there. Nothing. Jesse's supposed to have come back in time to save the soul of John Connor, worked this whole con just to free him from the machines, he's that important but she's about as affected by meeting Sarah as I am by meeting my lunch...
Something is deeply not right with Jesse. The way she steps around Derek's question is just one more sign.
And while we're speaking of Derek... who's the disracted one again, pal? I don't see Sarah letting a shower buddy derail her missions. Nice job, jerk.
Sarah didn't drop the ball - Jesse's story was that she was Riley's high school guidance counselor. The second woman was from the Department of Child and Family Services.
But I agree - Dead Riley is no good for John and Sarah's cover.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 7, 2009 1:13:33 GMT -5
I always thought that John is going to kill Cameron. Now that seems more and more likely. It all seems to be part of future John's plan. Uncle Bob made John soft. Because of Uncle Bob, John runs the danger of putting too much trust in a machine. Now Cameron has been sent to remind him that regardless of how much he may feel for them, they are still dangerous and he must always be vigilant. I think that killing Cameron will be what finally turns John into the person who would send his own father on a suicide mission.
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terrasj
Sergeant
Rossbond Connor Crew
Posts: 445
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Post by terrasj on Mar 7, 2009 1:34:03 GMT -5
Where to begin with this episode? OK, did anyone else jump when Cameron made her fingers twitch with the screwdriver? lol Not really. Though the diagnostic overlays in "Cam Vision" were pretty cool, showing the circuit pathways and trace routing. Interesting catch! Depends which way you view it. She's one of the smaller sized Terminators, so she's been thrown around alot, going hand to hand with the larger models when fighting for John - especially with the present John. As well built as they are, some damage is going to accumulate over time, especially in Cameron's case. Cameron's taken countless bullets also, been in a car explosion. John's statement I think was also referring in general - Terminators weren't built to fight Terminators, but humans rather. A human isn't going to toss a Terminator around like a rag doll. Lastly, as I said in an above post, John still cares for her, theres that bond that's between them. Thus John said it with affection, implying both facts above, as well as applying a very humble and human quality onto her - humans aren't invulnerable, and telling her its ok / alright that nor is she. Thats a polar opposite to previously calling her once "the world's most advanced killing machine'. If that isn't showing genuine care for Cameron, then I don't know what is. I think she might've been venting a bit of pent up frustration, though I didn't think the pistol was even pointing in Riley's direction (though i could be wrong) One of her missions was to protect John (obviously) But thats what I love about the format of this series. You can watch, then re-watch and look back in retrospect and gain more insight to more of the show's thread plots. Babylon5 was much like that also. Though Cam's many mission directives are still fairly vague instead of clear and specific. I still think some specifics like the Martin Bidell situation, Cameron might've actually made her own judgement call there to hang back. It'd be tough to be in the future - Go back and make sure you do ____ when ____ happens. I'd chalk that up to Cameron wanting John to shape up to become the John she knew in the future. There was also good training and valuable lesson in that. One of the aspects that would be hard to train John in otherwise, albiet, this was probably one of those cases happening by circumstance, if/when she gets damaged a bit, then she'd have John fix her up. Though I suppose Sarah could have had John dismantle and rebuild the endoskeletons before smelting them down with thermite. It could've been Future John's order to make sure younger John knows how to / is able to repair Cameron. It goes well with Cameron secretly stashing away spare parts without the Connor's knowledge. Though thats precautionary measure at best, to preserve the Terminator he's affectionate for. Although its not like Cameron went out and asked John to fix her, she was working on her arm herself when John came in. John sorta offered to help fix it as she showed him the problem. We know John's like that by default, if theres something to fix he'll work on it. However, the scene also served well to show just how much trust he has in Cameron. She said her hand is malfunctioning, meaning she can't control how much pressure grip she exerts with the fingers. Yet John still placed his hand in hers (a symbolic gesture), and told her to bend/close her fingers then straighten them. A bit reckless, yes, but it was no different earlier in the Season2 opener, when John valiantly climbed in close with Cameron and put her chip back in her. Its that implicit level of trust John still has within Cameron, which I think is important. (considering some of the snarky attitude he's given her for most of the season). I found that scene incredibly touching too. Though I think it was Cam's own initiative, not an order from Future John. Her main purpose is to protect current John from anything Skynet might throw at him. Unfortunately, she's been self assessing herself and concerned she may become a threat to him as well. Making the killswitch for John and implanting an explosive within her - could be the epitome showing of loyalty, if not even love and affection for John. She'd rather have John push the detonate button before she could hurt or kill him. True, while the Connors have dispatched other Terminators with high powered (and illegal) rifle and shotgun rounds, so it'd be no problem dispatching Cameron the same way. However, this was a personal choice and token made by Cameron, which she gave solely John, and John alone. Also a more dignified and graceful way of choosing to be terminated, a small explosive that'll nuke her chip inside. And when/should the time come, by John's hand alone. I think that says alot.
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Post by thecolours on Mar 7, 2009 1:41:43 GMT -5
No need to apologize dude. I personally could have done without that line. For that matter, what did you guys think of the Derek/Jesse interactions in general? I wonder why Jesse is so hesitant to help Derek out? I thought it was because she didn't want to be seen with Derek, in case Sarah or Cameron drop by, but I don't think that's why. She has another motive we don't know about yet.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 7, 2009 2:01:10 GMT -5
It's interesting how Cameron's left hand is twitching. Cromartie's left hand, specifically his trigger finger, was twitching right before he was killed.
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schmacky
Major
"Make yourself useful."
Posts: 522
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Post by schmacky on Mar 7, 2009 2:34:10 GMT -5
Ah that episode was all kinds of awesomeness! Each episode just keeps getting better and better. Things that I loved:
- Cameron attempting to let the bird go but killing it accidently. That is just SCARY. - The authorities snooping around the Baum's. I don't know why, but I like the idea of the Connors having to run not just from Terminators, but from the law/people too. - I LOVE to hate Jesse. - I felt insanely bad for Riley this entire episode. She was scared shitless, I just so felt for her. - Jesse semi-probing questions about "Uncle Derek" and I liked Sarah's response.. you know Jesse was fishing to know about the nature of Derek's relationship with Sarah - John seemed to be so... on top of things this episode. He just seemed different. He didn't figure everything out, but he just seems so much more mature in this episode. I really liked it. He's finally becoming his own man. - Derek's questioning look to Jesse when she came in to the hotel room.. you know he was wondering why she was wearing those clothes and her hair was like that. Very unlike Jesse. But he had more important things to worry about.. or so he thought. - It was quiet and subtle, but I liked that Sarah thought to kill Riley and then decided against it. - Jesse and Riley's fight.. WOW! That was so well done. Man I was totally rooting for Riley and I even let myself think for a moment that she would in fact win and the whole sub episode would be told by Derek or something lol. I don't know, but wow that was such a good scene. - I feel so bad for Riley - Leven's acting this episode. Really made me hurt for Riley. - John working on Cameron's arm and her comment about John being ahead of schedule. - The kill switch.
One thing that made me go "ahhh no!" Was when Sarah walked out onto the porch when Riley and John were talking. I just know that Riley would have told John if they weren't interrupted. On Sarah's defense, she didn't know they were talking about that and she totally blew Riley's ONLY chance of surviving but still I felt so bad for Riley there.. you knew she wanted to tell him but the girl was SCARED
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Post by aceplace57 on Mar 7, 2009 2:57:04 GMT -5
Summer did a good job in the scene with the locket. The way she put it over Dekker's head reminded me of my mom helping my dad with his coat. You get the impression Cameron is accustomed to attending to John and watching out for him. Has he got his car keys, a warm coat all the little things someone in a long relationship does.
I'm not jumping on the jameron train anytime soon. ;D But, yeah I totally see Cameron as John's closet friend and adviser. Cameron is the rock that gives John the strength to lead the resistance.
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timstuff
Private
Scary robot? Naw...
Posts: 232
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Post by timstuff on Mar 7, 2009 3:01:17 GMT -5
The scene where Cameron kills the bird was a very shocking and well done moment. Earlier in the scene where she was talking to the bird, it was actually really cute, but of course things had to go south after that. I think the arch we saw Cameron go through in this episode was pretty interesting, if you actually take a moment to analyze it. Cameron was definitely "glitching," but not necessarily in the way we might think at a first glance. When Cameron tried to move the bird, that was something counter to her "terminator" programming. If she was in "terminator mode," she would have killed it without a second thought. Instead though, she ended up making a decision, and decided she wanted to relocate it. Unfortunately though, her terminator programming got the better of her, and she ended up killing the bird. However, when we look at what happened when she confronted Riley in the garage, we see that Cameron's will power is starting to overcome her programming. This sort of happened once before, when she deleted her orders to kill John in "Samson and Delilah," but in this case, you could clearly see that she was struggling internally. Her programming was saying "she's a threat, kill her," but her developing sense of ethics and will were telling her "don't do it." If Cameron was functioning 100% to factory spec, she would have killed both the bird and Riley without a second thought. However, the fact that she is even capable of struggling to choose an alternative shows that she may be changing for the better. Like Uncle Bob before her, Cameron is learning to value life, but in her case, there is currently a much greater struggle when she tries to find an alternative to killing.
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schmacky
Major
"Make yourself useful."
Posts: 522
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Post by schmacky on Mar 7, 2009 3:09:43 GMT -5
Oh another thing I liked - Sarah not being cool with Derek going solo on a mission without letting anyone know.
On one hand, someone could see that as Sarah being a hypcorite because she's known to go out on her own.
But on the flip side.. she's right. It is her loop. No one was willing to follow her because they thought she was full of crap. That is until they saw the prototype and they're all on board. But no one would have seen that if it wasn't for her. The warehouse, the town, Caleba, the metal shop.. that's stuff Sarah found out all on her own and for Derek to not let Sarah know that he's going on one of the leads is not cool.
I'm also not sure what I think about Derek's comment about his people being distracted. He's pretty damn full of himself considering the "distracted" is the one that found all the leads.
About the bird and Riley... I agree, she was definitely struggling with it. It's like Cameron is going through the same thing Sarah did about killing... just the opposite.
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t101
Major
Posts: 716
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Post by t101 on Mar 7, 2009 4:06:08 GMT -5
- Here is a theory. The kill switch is a trick to get John's trust and when the time comes it is not going to work. I DO NOT WANT the betrayal plot but it certainly beats the hell out of Cameron dying plot. - John will eventually blame himself for Riley's death. Because if only he told her... etc. - Cameron is showing present John more respect. I can see why John is going to be more inclined to take Cameron's side rather than Sarah's on the eventual Cameron debate. Sarah doesn't show John much trust, Cameron on the other hand entrusts him with the ultimate choice. - Ah, Jesse's plan makes perfect sense (if Riley was right). Of course her contempt for machines made her utterly confident that she knew exactly what Cameron would do. But Cameron, because of her glitches or not, has changed. - Sarah did for a second there contemplate killing Riley. But that kind of ruthlessness is quiet beyond her still I always thought that John is going to kill Cameron. Now that seems more and more likely. It all seems to be part of future John's plan. Uncle Bob made John soft. Because of Uncle Bob, John runs the danger of putting too much trust in a machine. Now Cameron has been sent to remind him that regardless of how much he may feel for them, they are still dangerous and he must always be vigilant. I think that killing Cameron will be what finally turns John into the person who would send his own father on a suicide mission. I don't think that makes much sense because: 1) That's exactly what Jesse's plot is. 2) It implies that future John is fundamentally unhappy with his own attitude towards machines and is thinking he grew up wrong. I just don't see it.
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schmacky
Major
"Make yourself useful."
Posts: 522
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Post by schmacky on Mar 7, 2009 4:18:30 GMT -5
Something that just popped into my head in regards to the meeting between Jesse and Sarah Jesse's comment about wondering if it's wise to have an unattached adult male in the house with a pretty young girl seeking attention. First of all, what's that all about? Is she trying to throw some stuff into Sarah's head to drive even more of a wedge between Derek and Sarah? Maybe making her think he did/said something to Riley? Second of all, when is it a crime for a family to have an uncle staying with them when the nephew has a girlfriend? And I wonder if Sarah caught onto the fact that Jesse said "unattached." Sarah said SHE wasn't involved with Derek, that doesn't mean Derek isn't involved with anyone. Why would a high school guidance counselor make that assumption??? I'm inclined to believe that means something... this show doesn't throw out dialogue for no damn reason. Everything means something. ----------- Another thing.. Cameron and Sarah are switching places an awful lot... Sarah had struggles with killing and went through a mental journey and came out the other end able to kill. Cameron has been struggling NOT to kill (bird) and went through a 'mental' journey due to her glitch (though it's not over, I'm sure) and is currently unable/unwilling to kill (Riley) Sarah used to always trust John and has now told him straight out that she doesn't believe him. Cameron used to not trust John and/or question him and now she's completely put her trust in him by putting her 'life' in his hands. Maybe that's nothing, but it makes me go "hmm"
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t101
Major
Posts: 716
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Post by t101 on Mar 7, 2009 4:23:30 GMT -5
^ It's also interesting that what John wants from both women is for Cameron to perhaps be more human and for Sarah's to NOT be like Cameron.
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terrasj
Sergeant
Rossbond Connor Crew
Posts: 445
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Post by terrasj on Mar 7, 2009 4:40:16 GMT -5
Slightly offtopic notice: the SCS Toolbar Chat for 2x17 is still live and going strong folks!!! If your able to get into the chat, theres Me, Rift, Alexis, and now Schmacky still talkin about 2x07! I'll be posting a transcript of it later. Just thought i'd post the notice here, incase anyone else is interested in joining in and its 3:40am central tz here...
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