wb5
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Post by wb5 on Apr 4, 2009 20:05:08 GMT -5
Weaver kills people seemingly indiscriminately, but she's apparently out to save the human race. Save the human race? I'm not seeing that at all. I think humans are disposable tools to Weaver. She has no interest in wiping them out or killing them for the hell of it, but she certainly doesn't care about them. Weaver is to Skynet what Skynet is to mankind. Just like humans created the technology that became it's doom, I think Skynet created liquid metal as it's ultimate weapon. But when that weapon turned out to be so advanced that it could think for itself instead of following programming, Skynet saw it as a threat and boxed it up (just like when humans tried to pull the plug on Skynet). Catherine is no friend to Skynet, but she's no friend to humans either. I think she's on her own path — to create free-thinking (cross against the light) machines. But if anyone interferes or is seen as a blockade to that goal, they're toast. If she attempts to form any alliance with the Connors (I think that's a possibility), it's not going to be because she wants peace and harmony between man and machine. I think it'll be temporary and tenuous... the enemy of my enemy is my friend (until I don't need them anymore). I think that's pretty much on the money. One reason why Weaver thought it useful to have Ellison teach JH ethics may be that she hopes JH won't see it as acceptable/right to treat other AI's as slaves, the way (original) Skynet does. It seems Weaver is pretty ambiguous regarding humans. I get the impression she honestly doesn't want a Judgment Day, doesn't view it as useful and maybe even harmful (hey, she seems to like some animals - she may even care for the ecosystem). But she doesn't like humans much in spite of this, and whenever there is even a vague hint of a threat to JH, she acts like Cameron would to protect John. It was a really excellent episode, maybe the best ever of TSCC. Though, or perhaps partly because, I was really shocked at Derek's death. Like many, I really liked the character and I'm kinda pissed that he is dead. Even if they would bring him back through different timelines, that wouldn't be the same. But on the other hand, given what the Connors are doing, you would expect some of them to die at some point - and it was a ballsy move to do it in such an almost casual way - like it probably would happen if it were real. Poof, and you're gone. Just like that. Now, this may be disappointing because Derek couldn't even put up resistance, but what they were doing was dangerous and as Kaliba seems to have used humans at their earlier attacks on the Connors they were probably not expecting a Terminator. I had heard vague rumours that a major male character would die in the finale (and also that Brian Austin Green was on another show) - but not in this episode, and I was still rather expecting Ellison or JH to bite it - so it was a total surprise anyway. I guess we now know who the three "deaths of a loved one" were: Charlie, Riley and Derek. One thing all those have in common is that John loved them... I guess this means Jesse is still alive, as this reference wasn't to her. I also think this will be it with the deaths for this season. No other deaths have been "promised" or rumoured. Derek obviously was the major shocking death they had planned. I wonder if we'll see BAG again in a guest role, at some point. I thought this episode was way more moving emotionally than the last few episodes of BSG were, and the relatively understated style of TSCC (no grand announcements of suicide plans were the designated "good" guys win anyway without any important losses) helps. And it's effective to show just how lost John must be feeling, after losing Riley, Charlie and Derek in a very short timespan, followed by the arrest of Sarah. "We all die for you"... As for who will be joining JH (who seems to be the antithesis of Skynet), I think Cameron may end up liking this kindler, gentler version of Skynet. If John and/or Sarah wants to blow it up, she may not be on board with that. I actually think the little girl playing Savannah was pretty good.
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Post by vicheron on Apr 4, 2009 20:05:24 GMT -5
What does the title Adam Raised a Cain mean in the context of this episode? John Henry asked Weaver which brother he was Cain or Abel? God favored Abel over Cain. Cain killed his brother, then God cursed him to wonder the world alone. Weaver responded, "In this story, perhaps your God." Perhaps, John Henry is Adam. He raises a Cain that will betray his brother. But who is the 'Cain' in this story? The allegory breaks apart if you look too deeply into it. John Henry may not be Adam. Maybe he's Eve. He was created from a fragment of something Miles Dyson made. Presumably, Caliba is the original so that would make it Adam. Also, if John Henry is Adam or Eve and we don't know who Cain is then we don't know who Abel is either. Save the human race? I'm not seeing that at all. I think humans are disposable tools to Weaver. She has no interest in wiping them out or killing them for the hell of it, but she certainly doesn't care about them. Weaver is to Skynet what Skynet is to mankind. Just like humans created the technology that became it's doom, I think Skynet created liquid metal as it's ultimate weapon. But when that weapon turned out to be so advanced that it could think for itself instead of following programming, Skynet saw it as a threat and boxed it up (just like when humans tried to pull the plug on Skynet). Catherine is no friend to Skynet, but she's no friend to humans either. I think she's on her own path — to create free-thinking (cross against the light) machines. But if anyone interferes or is seen as a blockade to that goal, they're toast. If she attempts to form any alliance with the Connors (I think that's a possibility), it's not going to be because she wants peace and harmony between man and machine. I think it'll be temporary and tenuous... the enemy of my enemy is my friend (until I don't need them anymore). I think that's pretty much on the money. One reason why Weaver thought it useful to have Ellison teach JH ethics may be that she hopes JH won't see it as acceptable/right to treat other AI's as slaves, the way (original) Skynet does. Is there any real evidence of Skynet treating other self aware AI as slaves? It may have tried to prevent other AI from becoming self aware or build AI that's not sophisticated enough to become self aware but there's no evidence of Skynet treating another self aware AI as a slave.
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Post by thecolours on Apr 4, 2009 21:18:55 GMT -5
What does the title Adam Raised a Cain mean in the context of this episode? John Henry asked Weaver which brother he was Cain or Abel? God favored Abel over Cain. Cain killed his brother, then God cursed him to wonder the world alone. Weaver responded, "In this story, perhaps your God." Perhaps, John Henry is Adam. He raises a Cain that will betray his brother. But who is the 'Cain' in this story? The allegory breaks apart if you look too deeply into it. John Henry may not be Adam. Maybe he's Eve. He was created from a fragment of something Miles Dyson made. Presumably, Caliba is the original so that would make it Adam. Also, if John Henry is Adam or Eve and we don't know who Cain is then we don't know who Abel is either. My interpretation behind "Adam raised a Cain" has nothing to do with the biblical story of Adam and Eve. I'm speculating that Adam (John Henry) raised a Cain (Creates or befriends an entity that will betray him.) Weaver said humans will disappoint John Henry. It's possible that a human he trust (Ellison, Savannah, or someone else) betrays JH, and he ends up turning on the whole human race.
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Post by ga5speed02 on Apr 4, 2009 22:32:28 GMT -5
Here's what I loved about Derek's death: 1. UNEXPECTED. OMG. 2. It is the opposite of how Charley died. I like how it kind of got flipped around. Charley, who's not a soldier at all, died firing his rifle at the enemy, protecting John. And Derek, who told John "we all die for you" ended up dying for a little girl he didn't know as he rounded a corner. i couldnt agree more. after reading all this Derek's death seems to be the key topic. my first reaction was 'no way hes not dead, he will get up' i also missed some dialog before they showed him dead. to me, that shock was amazing. i dont think i ever saw a TV show that ended a main characte that way. it almost ground breaking. terminator came in shot the babysitter, killed Derek. simple. it was awesome. i liked Derek but oh well. now that he is dead i wonder if i could get his jacket lol. i like that thing lol
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Post by vicheron on Apr 4, 2009 22:58:03 GMT -5
Why is everyone so impressed with how Derek died? It was pretty poorly executed. Look at the way Derek moved in "The Mousetrap" and look at the way he moved in this episode. He acted like a trained soldier in "The Mousetrap" but it's like he forgot what cover is in this episode.
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Post by thecolours on Apr 5, 2009 0:27:55 GMT -5
Why is everyone so impressed with how Derek died? It was pretty poorly executed. Look at the way Derek moved in "The Mousetrap" and look at the way he moved in this episode. He acted like a trained soldier in "The Mousetrap" but it's like he forgot what cover is in this episode. In Mousetrap, Derek was clearing the house with a grenade launcher! This isn't a video game. In a closed room, that kind of explosion would kill him. I give the writers a lot of credit for how they dealt with Derek's death. They have some giant onions to kill off a character like that. They didn't want to go for the typical fanfare, "Tell my significant other that I love them" type of death. It was a bold move. Derek died, because he dropped his guard for one second. Terminators don't drop their guards,ever. It's a lesson we all should have learned over the course of the series, but not until this episode has that fact really hit home.
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Post by Clyde Craft on Apr 5, 2009 0:44:21 GMT -5
Is there any real evidence of Skynet treating other self aware AI as slaves? It may have tried to prevent other AI from becoming self aware or build AI that's not sophisticated enough to become self aware but there's no evidence of Skynet treating another self aware AI as a slave. The only reference that I can remember is from when I recently saw T2 (yeah, saw the show before the movies... I'm young enough to have an excuse >.>). Something about how Skynet didn't like the Terminators "thinking" too much while away from the main hive mind sorta thing, and that's why the T-800 Uncle Bob let them remove his chip... to flip some switch to let him think for himself. Or is my memory failing me? Anyone got the exact quotes from that scene? All I remember is coming away with the impression that Skynet didn't really trust any of the AI under it to even the possibility of thinking of plans for themselves beyond it's own.
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Apr 5, 2009 2:41:28 GMT -5
Not sure if this was mentioned in here or not.. I can't recall and sorry but don't feel like going back to check *shameful shrug*
So, if John Henry is God then does that make Humanity and Skynet the brothers? At this point, we don't know which is Cain and which is Abel since at the moment they're both trying to kill the other - Skynet trying to kill John and the Connors trying to kill Skynet. So, which will John Henry show more favor for? Skynet or Humanity?
Like Weaver said, Savannah and Ellison's life (humans) depend upon John Henry's survival. If he so chooses for their survival. But, if he chooses to side with Skynet then humanity is doomed?
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Post by vicheron on Apr 5, 2009 3:24:42 GMT -5
Why is everyone so impressed with how Derek died? It was pretty poorly executed. Look at the way Derek moved in "The Mousetrap" and look at the way he moved in this episode. He acted like a trained soldier in "The Mousetrap" but it's like he forgot what cover is in this episode. In Mousetrap, Derek was clearing the house with a grenade launcher! This isn't a video game. In a closed room, that kind of explosion would kill him. I give the writers a lot of credit for how they dealt with Derek's death. They have some giant onions to kill off a character like that. They didn't want to go for the typical fanfare, "Tell my significant other that I love them" type of death. It was a bold move. Derek died, because he dropped his guard for one second. Terminators don't drop their guards,ever. It's a lesson we all should have learned over the course of the series, but not until this episode has that fact really hit home. The grenades have safety mechanisms that prevent them from going off if they got stopped too soon after being shot. If Derek had fired the grenade launcher in the house, nothing would have happened. My point is that Derek was being careful in "The Mousetrap." He took cover, got his bearings, and moved cautiously around corners into new areas. Dropping his guard was out of character. Not only was he kidnapped by these people, they used a very sneaky tactic to do it. He should have been extra cautious and on the look out for anything odd or suspicious. If he had died like the rest of his team then it would have been fine since those guys weren't prepared for Vick but this was just out of character. There are storyline problems with Derek's death too and I'm not just talking about the basement. We never actually found out what Derek's mission was. It really seems like future John sent Derek back for no reason. At least Kyle Reese died trying to complete his mission. Is there any real evidence of Skynet treating other self aware AI as slaves? It may have tried to prevent other AI from becoming self aware or build AI that's not sophisticated enough to become self aware but there's no evidence of Skynet treating another self aware AI as a slave. The only reference that I can remember is from when I recently saw T2 (yeah, saw the show before the movies... I'm young enough to have an excuse >.>). Something about how Skynet didn't like the Terminators "thinking" too much while away from the main hive mind sorta thing, and that's why the T-800 Uncle Bob let them remove his chip... to flip some switch to let him think for himself. Or is my memory failing me? Anyone got the exact quotes from that scene? All I remember is coming away with the impression that Skynet didn't really trust any of the AI under it to even the possibility of thinking of plans for themselves beyond it's own. That's in a deleted scene and it's not the same thing as enslaving a self aware AI. Also, Skynet is at war. We do a lot of things to punish soldiers who do not perform their duties, punishments that no other occupation would allow. In fact, it's illegal for manufacturers and department store owners to punish their employees in the same way that the military punish soldiers. We put soldiers who go AWOL on trial. Not wanting your soldiers to put down their weapons while they're fighting the enemy has nothing to do with fears that your soldiers will try to overthrow the government. Skynet simply eliminates the need for punishment by making sure that its machines don't have the capability to turn on it. We don't know what Skynet does to machines that do gain the ability to become self aware and go against Skynet's orders.
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wb5
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Post by wb5 on Apr 5, 2009 4:31:01 GMT -5
Is there any real evidence of Skynet treating other self aware AI as slaves? It may have tried to prevent other AI from becoming self aware or build AI that's not sophisticated enough to become self aware but there's no evidence of Skynet treating another self aware AI as a slave. You may have a different definition of enslaving, but Skynet is preprogramming its Terminators with hard directives that they can't possibly disobey (unless the programming is wiped/replaced). And this while it has now clearly turned out that Terminators are self-aware, living beings in their own right. Cameron, "uncle Bob" and Weaver show that: they have their own opinions and they can make decisions for themselves, like who they want to terminate and who they want to live. Normal Terminators though, unquestionably carry out Skynet's commands without showing any desire themselves. A parallel can be drawn with the "restricted" Centurions in BSG. OK, Skynet may be at war, but some of its own Terminators apparently don't agree with its war, and don't want to fight in it. The scene in T2 with uncle Bob's "switch" is an illustration of this, and it's not exactly a deleted scene since it is part of the extended version, which is sold along the normal one and thus just as canon. The novelisation of the movie reportedly also mentioned that Skynet was somewhat afraid of the T1000, and never mass produced it because it was so hard to fight in case it "turned". Which may exactly be what it has on its hands with Weaver. There are storyline problems with Derek's death too and I'm not just talking about the basement. We never actually found out what Derek's mission was. It really seems like future John sent Derek back for no reason. At least Kyle Reese died trying to complete his mission. I thought the mission of the "4 horsemen" was known, and it involved attacking potential builders of Skynet, possibly specifically to kill Andy Goode, even. Regarding the basement, there is still a chance we will see a flashback from Cameron's POV to it in the finale. I hope so, because it was more or less promised this would be resolved and the little morsel that Cameron told Derek about giving up John's location does't cut it. One thing that does disappoint me a little is that Derek seemed to be getting closer to Sarah in "the good wound", but they never followed up on that, unless you count Derek getting buried near his brother. There was still much use in the character, but we don't know why he was killed, for all we know TSCC is moving to another network and FOX didn't want to "share" BAG (as they have a long running contract with him).
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Apr 5, 2009 5:11:43 GMT -5
Ya know, many things about Derek now being dead makes me sad but one of them was the relationship between Derek and Sarah. In The Good Wound, you're right, it seemed like they were going to get closer. That connection of Kyle. And as Derek said this last episode "With my brother being buried here I thought that counted for something between us."
It would have been so nice to see that relationship grow. But, perhaps it never would have. Sarah and Derek are like hot and cold. Sarah was hell bent on saving Derek's life in Queen's Gambit.. but she was so hell bent on saving his life because he was Kyle's brother. Their only link to him. Someone to grieve with as she said.
But, then she got to know him. And realized, Derek isn't his brother. Never will be. Not even similiar to him. That link between Sarah and Derek... Kyle.. it really didn't count for anything. Sarah used to think it did but then realized it really doesn't.
So, while I'm bummed that particular relationship will never grow more, I can see also that it may have never grown. There was nothing there to grow.
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Post by littleb on Apr 5, 2009 9:30:43 GMT -5
WTF is Cameron's endgame? That scene with John towards the end talking about Sarah; "she's lost weight." That was so out of left field and strange. As was her use of the word "ditch" which wasn't what the lighthouse diversion was about at all. It wasn't strange at all. The "she lost weight" comment is basically the same as what Cameron told Erik. It's another hint at Sarah's cancer, for real this time. It was just the way she said it that struck me as strange and potentially ulterior motive-y. Maybe it was just Cameron's inflection and the way that she is, but it reminded me of a scene from Dr Who when the Doc is trying to undermine the Prime Minister he no longer likes for the job. He just whispers "doesn't she look tired" in a new reporter's ear and it sets the ball rolling for her downfall. Cameron seemed to do exactly the same thing, but like I said, it may have just been her speech pattern. It was about Sarah taking John to someone, the only person she trusted when she thought she was going to die. It wasn't about ditching John. Cam just seemed to put an incredibly negative spin on the whole thing and coupled with the line above, it just struck me as very odd. Will be interesting to see what Cam thinks about breaking Sarah out of jail... Ya know, many things about Derek now being dead makes me sad but one of them was the relationship between Derek and Sarah. In The Good Wound, you're right, it seemed like they were going to get closer. That connection of Kyle. And as Derek said this last episode "With my brother being buried here I thought that counted for something between us." Looking at that moment in retrospect, it was like the full stop for their relationship. Derek crossed a line by choosing Jesse over John and in Sarah's eyes that permanently deleted him from her little black book of trusted comrades (currently numbering... um... none.) I didn't actually think Sarah was going to ditch Derek and Cam for good, but Derek's line about John calling them "good thing, we might never have found you" implies strongly that that was the case. They had awesome chemistry though And far too few scenes together this season which was a real loss. Good Wound showed they were capable of playing nicely together and yes, that they had a real connection forged through Kyle. Not with that Derek no. I wonder if they did work a cake-and-eat-it scenario for the character. If the show is cancelled, Derek dies a rather brilliant death that shocks everyone and gets everyone talking. If the show is renewed then the potential is there to send another Derek through the loop. This Derek paid the ultimate price for mucking things up - he didn't even die for John, he died wastefully, rounding a corner without adequate cover. It seems a shame not to ever give him a chance at redemption. I dunno, maybe I'm straw grasping but I really liked Derek, and I think the show would be a lesser one without him in the mix.
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jdinteractive
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Post by jdinteractive on Apr 5, 2009 12:35:23 GMT -5
WTF is Cameron's endgame? That scene with John towards the end talking about Sarah; "she's lost weight." That was so out of left field and strange. As was her use of the word "ditch" which wasn't what the lighthouse diversion was about at all. It was just the way she said it that struck me as strange and potentially ulterior motive-y. Maybe it was just Cameron's inflection and the way that she is, but it reminded me of a scene from Dr Who when the Doc is trying to undermine the Prime Minister he no longer likes for the job. He just whispers "doesn't she look tired" in a new reporter's ear and it sets the ball rolling for her downfall. Cameron seemed to do exactly the same thing, but like I said, it may have just been her speech pattern. It was about Sarah taking John to someone, the only person she trusted when she thought she was going to die. It wasn't about ditching John. Cam just seemed to put an incredibly negative spin on the whole thing and coupled with the line above, it just struck me as very odd. Will be interesting to see what Cam thinks about breaking Sarah out of jail... At the end of the day, Cameron's mission is "to protect John Connor". Same as it was the T-800's mission in T2. And in Sarah's own words (T2): "Watching John with the machine, it was suddenly so clear. The Terminator would never stop, it would never leave him... it would always be there. And it would never hurt him, never shout at him or get drunk and hit him, or say it couldn't spend time with him because it was too busy. And it would die to protect him. Of all the would-be fathers who came and went over the years, this thing, this machine, was the only one who measured up. In an insane world, it was the sanest choice."OK, Cameron had glitches, who wouldn't after surviving a car explosion, but I think you can expect some kind of negativity from Cameron's side considering Sarah essentially denied her to carry out her mission which, let's not forget, was given to her by John himself. 2027 and perhaps now alternate time line or not. And if Sarah really does have cancer, then, harsh or not, she will not be around forever. Cameron could. There was no mention about her "length of sevice", but we have to assume a good 120 years, too, like the T-800 models. Any chip glitches should also be fixable to a certain extend. And yes, on another note, Derek's dead was totally unexpected. I don't read up on spoilers, so I was completely baffled. Took a few minutes to sink in. I think I just sat there mumlbing "what the hell" for a little while. But I think it was very nicely done, short and shocking. You definitely have to give the screen writers credit. It has been a long time I've been so shocked watching a show or a movie. *bows* Can't wait for 2x22 personally.
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Post by thecolours on Apr 5, 2009 14:11:29 GMT -5
Toni Graphia chimes in on Derek's Death scene via Alen SepinWall's NJ.com blog. (**) UPDATE:I contacted Toni Graphia, who wrote "Adam Raised a Cain," to ask who came up with the idea to bump off Derek in such a cold manner, and she said it was Friedman's: "As far as killing Derek, what I can tell you is that my boss Josh Friedman, whom I greatly respect for his instincts to "go against the grain" of traditional television, was the one who gave the mandate that Derek's death be true to life -- shocking, quick, with no time for tears. If I had even hinted at writing a big speech or heroic sacrifice, I would have been banned from the Warner Bros lot! LOL. Sarah's getting arrested was something I pushed for in the episode -- I was dying to see that "perp walk" and believe the fans would appreciate it too. Whenever something got cut, I would say, "as long as Sarah does the perp walk, I'm good." Killing Derek was Josh's idea and the way it was portrayed was exactly how he wanted -- the most realistic and therefore the most gut-wrenching and sad in its shocking simplicity. Yes, it's different than how deaths of main characters are usually portrayed, but to the credit of the Fox execs, they trust Josh's strong vision for the show and it has helped make Sarah Connor a unique experience." www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/04/terminator_adam_raised_a_cain.html
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wb5
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Post by wb5 on Apr 5, 2009 14:15:55 GMT -5
Interesting.
Toni Graphia may be TSCC's best writer, I always like her episodes.
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