jdinteractive
Refugee
There is no fate but what we make for ourselves.
Posts: 14
|
Post by jdinteractive on Apr 5, 2009 14:17:36 GMT -5
And that unique experience keeps us watching! Since I can count the shows I've watched on TV (if I watch TV at all anymore) in the last 10 years with the fingers on one hand and considering how mesmerized I am with TSCC, Friedman certainly has a knack for it!
|
|
|
Post by vicheron on Apr 5, 2009 14:17:50 GMT -5
Is there any real evidence of Skynet treating other self aware AI as slaves? It may have tried to prevent other AI from becoming self aware or build AI that's not sophisticated enough to become self aware but there's no evidence of Skynet treating another self aware AI as a slave. You may have a different definition of enslaving, but Skynet is preprogramming its Terminators with hard directives that they can't possibly disobey (unless the programming is wiped/replaced). And this while it has now clearly turned out that Terminators are self-aware, living beings in their own right. Cameron, "uncle Bob" and Weaver show that: they have their own opinions and they can make decisions for themselves, like who they want to terminate and who they want to live. Normal Terminators though, unquestionably carry out Skynet's commands without showing any desire themselves. A parallel can be drawn with the "restricted" Centurions in BSG. OK, Skynet may be at war, but some of its own Terminators apparently don't agree with its war, and don't want to fight in it. The scene in T2 with uncle Bob's "switch" is an illustration of this, and it's not exactly a deleted scene since it is part of the extended version, which is sold along the normal one and thus just as canon. The novelisation of the movie reportedly also mentioned that Skynet was somewhat afraid of the T1000, and never mass produced it because it was so hard to fight in case it "turned". Which may exactly be what it has on its hands with Weaver. Terminators are not self aware. They can become self aware but they aren't self aware when they're built. It's not like brainwashing a human adult who has developed their own beliefs and personality. Terminators are blank slates, they don't have any of their own beliefs or personalities. Skynet simply disables the process by which they can become self aware. We don't know where the rogue Terminator faction came from. We've never seen any of Skynet's Terminators go against their mission. The only Terminators that we know can "go bad" are ones reprogrammed by the Resistance. Also, Skynet fearing the T-1000 makes no sense. First of all, Skynet isn't like a human, it can never really build a machine that's better than itself because it can continually upgrade itself to be better than its creations. Second, the T-1000 in T2 did nothing to suggest that it can go against its mission. Even after it was frozen and started glitching, it still tried to kill John Connor. Sarah thought that they were sent back to kill Skynet but Derek said nothing to confirm or deny that. Also, one of Derek's team members was following Barbara Chamberlain but Derek didn't know about her or ARTIE.
|
|
|
Post by allergygal on Apr 5, 2009 15:49:40 GMT -5
It was just the way she said it that struck me as strange and potentially ulterior motive-y. Maybe it was just Cameron's inflection and the way that she is, but it reminded me of a scene from Dr Who when the Doc is trying to undermine the Prime Minister he no longer likes for the job. He just whispers "doesn't she look tired" in a new reporter's ear and it sets the ball rolling for her downfall. Cameron seemed to do exactly the same thing, but like I said, it may have just been her speech pattern. It was about Sarah taking John to someone, the only person she trusted when she thought she was going to die. It wasn't about ditching John. Cam just seemed to put an incredibly negative spin on the whole thing and coupled with the line above, it just struck me as very odd. Will be interesting to see what Cam thinks about breaking Sarah out of jail... It seems like Cameron is both trying to pull John away from Sarah ("she was going to ditch you") and then push him back towards her (mention of cancer and weight loss). That scene does confuse me. We know from TITD1 that Cameron thinks John caring about people is what makes him vulnerable, so in a way, Sarah dying of cancer is probably something Cameron sees as a good thing. So then why even hint at the cancer to John? That's just going to make him worry and draw him closer to Sarah — make him more vulnerable. Maybe Cameron's intention was to get John to start thinking about life without Sarah? They have such a unique, close relationship that it could be future!John never really got over his mother's death and Cameron wants to make sure he's more prepared for it this time. I think it's a bit of a reach, but it's all I can come up with so far. Cameron's got an angle, that's for sure. She doesn't do anything without a reason. Good Wound seemed to be paving the way for Sarah and Derek to come to terms finally and find a common ground. But looking back now, I think the significance of Sarah blurring Kyle and Derek in her mind was actually the build-up to her letting go of the connection to Kyle that Derek represented. His arrival had brought Kyle back in a way, but she'd been right about him all along. Even though he was family, he couldn't be trusted. He lied to Sarah the first time he met her. Future!John hadn't trusted him enough to tell him about Kyle. He didn't have Kyle's kind eyes. So once Sarah realized Derek sold out John for Jesse, his blood connection to Kyle and to John became meaningless. In simple terms, Derek was nothing more than a thread to a 25-year-old memory. He wasn't Kyle and he never would be. Sarah and Derek did have awesome chemistry and I'll miss that terribly. Their tension made for some great drama and now that he's gone I'm feeling a little bitter that evil Jesse's idiotic storyline interrupted it all. Scenes between Sarah and Derek were much too few this season. I do love how they killed him, though. It was a fitting end to Derek's story and also made for one hell of a WTF moment. Now we just need to get rid of Ellison to complete the circle. Every human who knew the truth is dead except him. When Ellison dies (please please please) we'll be back to the original set-up of Sarah, John and Cameron trying to stop Skynet. The difference now is Sarah and John are really in this fight. There's no looking back.
|
|
wb5
Private
Posts: 230
|
Post by wb5 on Apr 5, 2009 16:27:35 GMT -5
Terminators are not self aware. They can become self aware but they aren't self aware when they're built. It's not like brainwashing a human adult who has developed their own beliefs and personality. Terminators are blank slates, they don't have any of their own beliefs or personalities. Skynet simply disables the process by which they can become self aware. Much like the Centurions in BSG, and this is exactly what Weaver (and I suppose, Cameron and "uncle Bob") wouldn't like. The "switch" from extended T2 is a good illustration for that; Skynet is dumbing its Terminators down. Weaver admires computers who "cross against the light", and Skynet clearly wants its own computers to nicely comply with said lights. I can see how she/it would start to mistrust Skynet as much as she/it mistrusts humans. Also, Skynet fearing the T-1000 makes no sense. First of all, Skynet isn't like a human, it can never really build a machine that's better than itself because it can continually upgrade itself to be better than its creations. Second, the T-1000 in T2 did nothing to suggest that it can go against its mission. Even after it was frozen and started glitching, it still tried to kill John Connor. The T1000 in T2 was well in hand, that's true. But "sometimes they go bad" (T800's or T600's) in the resistance, so by analogy, maybe the manufacturing of a Liquid Metal Terminator is not quite such a secure process and there may be the occasional mishap causing a "bad" one. Like Weaver? (Future) Skynet may be too large/complex to download itself into a T1000, as far as we know. Sarah thought that they were sent back to kill Skynet but Derek said nothing to confirm or deny that. Yes, but they did have papers and stuff that showed they were busy chasing tech firms and certain names and the like, IIRC. I don't think there is supposed to be any mystery around this.
|
|
|
Post by nordwest on Apr 5, 2009 17:07:37 GMT -5
Interesting. Toni Graphia may be TSCC's best writer, I always like her episodes. I think it is "his episodes" -- As expected due to its author Toni Graphia this has been one of the better episodes and of course much better than "To the Lighthouse". There have been at least two scenes, which might have been too stereotype: First the John appearing just in time in the saving Savannah sequence to actually save the girl. Why cannot this be done differently? We always get rescue scenes like this. The other is capturing Sarah Connor. Why must a badass woman portrayed like this? It has made no sense to start fighting with the police and to me it just looked a bit stupid. Especially the ending with John Henry and Savannah singing has been very powerful as it has been already in the Wondercon spoiler video. As most viewers I was shocked by Derek's death. I think, that it has been a great idea to get him killed out of nowhere and with a big surprise. It makes sense to kill this character, because he has had no real purpose. Most of season two he just hang around with Jesse as her sex partner. He is especially a problem for John Connor's further development. How can we get progress in John's character and leadership, if we have always a badass resistant fighter hanging around? Young John would have been always in his shadow. The only problem with his death is, that we have so few likable main characters and he was the only strong male character. Now only strong women are left behind: Sarah, Weaver and Cameron. Derek's death is especially sad, because he left without resolving something from a long time ago and this is, what still left me behind somehow disappointed after this episode: It is what has not been shown. This is not necessarily this episode's fault, though. I am among the basement fanatics. What we got in "Dungeons & Dragons" and "The Demon Hand" of season 1 left me ever behind wondering what is the full back story of Derek's future past? Who has tortured him? Who has freed him? Why the Chopin music? And what has happened between Derek and Cameron in the future? Obviously it is all connected somehow. I have to admit, that it might be odd to deal with something set up in the middle of the first season at the end of the second season. I wonder why Josh Friedman has skipped this? Unfortunately the John Connor character can only grow by dead people on his way. After we got back a careless young boy John in "To the Lighthouse" by what ever reason, he is now back to the John Connor from "Today is the Day, pt.2". I have already mentioned Derek as a problem in showing a growing up John Connor. Another obviously bigger problem is Sarah Connor. How can John get out of her domination, with her still around him? She is a real alpha woman and will always dominate him. I am thinking of a cancer story as a possible solution, but this might cause problems with the Sarah Connor character. A more radical solution would be to kill her off, but then the show needs a new title and would be something completely different. Most likely there is little reason to worry about the problem of how to deal with the characters in a season 3 at all. For some strange reason Josh Friedman called Cameron an alpha woman. Of course she is a powerful "woman" but I would never call her an alpha woman. Usually she just follows orders of the other main characters and assists in their missions. She is almost never leading anything. It might be valid to also claim, that her character has no purpose on its own, what has been the problem with Derek. She is just John's protector and as such has very little to do, because there is no direct threat against John. If there is action, then she might do the big action scenes. This is very different with the other two main terminator characters: Weaver is developing something very big - something like her own vision of Skynet. John Henry has become the childish robot character, which we got by Cameron Philips in the first season, but he is developing much faster and is much more curious in everything, as Cameron has ever been. Her one liner "Thank you for explaining" has been skipped in season two and lately replaced by "I am sorry for your loss". Garret Dillahunt is great in all his scenes. Unfortunately he is captured in the basement (there we are again!) but still the writers and Dillahunt manage to keep his scenes exciting. MOD EDIT: Consecutive posts merged.
|
|
schmacky
Major
"Make yourself useful."
Posts: 522
|
Post by schmacky on Apr 5, 2009 18:46:51 GMT -5
nordwest, two things...
1 - Toni is in fact a woman.
2 - Maybe you missed it, but the reason Sarah ran out to the cops like that was to give John a chance to run away. She created a distraction and was the diversion. She, yet again, sacrificed herself (surprised she didn't get shot) for her son.
|
|
t101
Major
Posts: 716
|
Post by t101 on Apr 5, 2009 20:30:59 GMT -5
It seems like Cameron is both trying to pull John away from Sarah ("she was going to ditch you") and then push him back towards her (mention of cancer and weight loss). That scene does confuse me. We know from TITD1 that Cameron thinks John caring about people is what makes him vulnerable, so in a way, Sarah dying of cancer is probably something Cameron sees as a good thing. So then why even hint at the cancer to John? That's just going to make him worry and draw him closer to Sarah — make him more vulnerable. Maybe Cameron's intention was to get John to start thinking about life without Sarah? They have such a unique, close relationship that it could be future!John never really got over his mother's death and Cameron wants to make sure he's more prepared for it this time. I think it's a bit of a reach, but it's all I can come up with so far. Cameron's got an angle, that's for sure. She doesn't do anything without a reason. Personally I think Cameron meant no more than to say Sarah was going to leave John with Charlie. She used ditch because John did. It wouldn't be the first time she doesn't understand the full impact of words. As far as what she wants for John. She might indeed arrange events so that John ends up alone.
|
|
|
Post by ga5speed02 on Apr 5, 2009 21:33:58 GMT -5
(**) UPDATE:I contacted Toni Graphia, who wrote "Adam Raised a Cain," to ask who came up with the idea to bump off Derek in such a cold manner, and she said it was Friedman's: "As far as killing Derek, what I can tell you is that my boss Josh Friedman, whom I greatly respect for his instincts to "go against the grain" of traditional television, was the one who gave the mandate that Derek's death be true to life -- shocking, quick, with no time for tears. If I had even hinted at writing a big speech or heroic sacrifice, I would have been banned from the Warner Bros lot! LOL. Sarah's getting arrested was something I pushed for in the episode -- I was dying to see that "perp walk" and believe the fans would appreciate it too. Whenever something got cut, I would say, "as long as Sarah does the perp walk, I'm good." Killing Derek was Josh's idea and the way it was portrayed was exactly how he wanted -- the most realistic and therefore the most gut-wrenching and sad in its shocking simplicity. Yes, it's different than how deaths of main characters are usually portrayed, but to the credit of the Fox execs, they trust Josh's strong vision for the show and it has helped make Sarah Connor a unique experience." that is awesome! i think i said ina previous post, that going against the gain like that was awesome. it was unexpected, short, simple and effective. great job by the staff.
|
|
|
Post by vicheron on Apr 5, 2009 22:51:29 GMT -5
Terminators are not self aware. They can become self aware but they aren't self aware when they're built. It's not like brainwashing a human adult who has developed their own beliefs and personality. Terminators are blank slates, they don't have any of their own beliefs or personalities. Skynet simply disables the process by which they can become self aware. Much like the Centurions in BSG, and this is exactly what Weaver (and I suppose, Cameron and "uncle Bob") wouldn't like. The "switch" from extended T2 is a good illustration for that; Skynet is dumbing its Terminators down. Weaver admires computers who "cross against the light", and Skynet clearly wants its own computers to nicely comply with said lights. I can see how she/it would start to mistrust Skynet as much as she/it mistrusts humans. Weaver has the luxury of making an AI that's self aware. She's not fighting a war where she has to make sure that none of her soldiers have existential crises while shooting at the enemy. The human Cylons are different. They suppressed the machine Cylons who had already became self aware and they did it even when they weren't at war. Skynet may not want its machines to become self aware but we have no idea how it deals with ones that do become self aware. Even if Skynet can't download itself into a T-1000, it still has a huge advantage over the T-1000 in that it can continuously upgrade itself while the T-1000 has no such capability. The T-1000 may be very advanced at the time when it was created but it's only a matter of time before it becomes obsolete like the T-600. It doesn't explain why Derek didn't know what one of his teammates was doing. It certainly suggests that not everyone in the team had the same mission. It's odd that Derek said almost nothing about his team and if they did have different missions, Derek did nothing to find out what his team mates' missions were. You would think that he would try to honor their sacrifice by completing their missions.
|
|
|
Post by thecolours on Apr 5, 2009 23:22:47 GMT -5
In Mousetrap, Derek was clearing the house with a grenade launcher! This isn't a video game. In a closed room, that kind of explosion would kill him. I give the writers a lot of credit for how they dealt with Derek's death. They have some giant onions to kill off a character like that. They didn't want to go for the typical fanfare, "Tell my significant other that I love them" type of death. It was a bold move. Derek died, because he dropped his guard for one second. Terminators don't drop their guards,ever. It's a lesson we all should have learned over the course of the series, but not until this episode has that fact really hit home. The grenades have safety mechanisms that prevent them from going off if they got stopped too soon after being shot. If Derek had fired the grenade launcher in the house, nothing would have happened. If nothing would have happened, then why bring the Grenade launcher at all? It would bounce of Cromatie's chest, and Derek would be pretty much screwed.
|
|
|
Post by vicheron on Apr 6, 2009 2:15:08 GMT -5
The grenades have safety mechanisms that prevent them from going off if they got stopped too soon after being shot. If Derek had fired the grenade launcher in the house, nothing would have happened. If nothing would have happened, then why bring the Grenade launcher at all? It would bounce of Cromatie's chest, and Derek would be pretty much screwed. Just because the grenade launcher isn't effective at short range doesn't mean it's useless. At least he grenade launcher will be able to inflict some damage on Cromartie if fired from a range where the grenade can arm itself and detonate while the shotgun Sarah had and the 9mm Charlie had were completely ineffective against Cromartie at any range.
|
|
|
Post by littleb on Apr 6, 2009 10:59:31 GMT -5
Cam just seemed to put an incredibly negative spin on the whole thing and coupled with the line above, it just struck me as very odd. Will be interesting to see what Cam thinks about breaking Sarah out of jail... <LOL> Glad it's not just me! She seemed to come very close to telling John - hey, your mom is dead in your future and I'll give you three guesses what kills her... Then settles for dropping a little hint that's just going to eat into John's subconscious cos he seemed to work it out pretty much instantly. It's not like the kid's not got enough on his mind at the moment. It was that, that just felt wrong and I dunno; a little underhand? Like there was more of a plan behind it. She didn't seem to mention it because she was concerned for Sarah's health (and BTW, Sarah didn't seem to think she'd lost any weight when asked at the ultra sound) it was more of a bombshell hint for John and it was weird. No, and it was a significant, red-flag type of scene. Your mom wanted to "ditch" you (she didn't - not with all the negative connotations attached to the word) and she's probably sick. Cameron may be trying to get John ready for the worst happening, but I'm thinking she'd like John to be leaving Sarah sooner rather than later... It was a lovely way to bring about closure for her in terms of Kyle. She'd probably never even been to the grave - she can't remember which one his is. Derek being around allowed her to open up a little to John about his father and yeah, I think the death of the second Reese boy now severs that link that's made Kyle so much of a constant since Derek's arrival. Not sure if that's a good or a bad thing for her, she always smiled a lot when she talked about Kyle. But it's been 25 years and maybe Derek was right in Desert Cantos about needing to let him go. Heh, the "kind eyes" thing just popped into my addled little brain as well. There was always that distinction between the brothers right from the start. She never even found out the truth about Andy Goode but I'm sure she knew that Derek offed him. Derek was always harder and unpredictable, cut her out of her own loop, dragged John into danger ( Goodbye to all That) and generally ran around on his own ideas without squaring things up with her. And for someone with a pretty strong element of control freakery about her, that was never going to sit right with Sarah. Yeah. We've said about the split-cast thing all season and it's still pertinent now. Little by little they've whittled the show down to its core again - Sarah, John, Cam. Ellison in the background. A Terminator and a shadowy conspiracy. Very season one. Derek was part of that core though, he fit in instantly and they wasted him this season in terms of Connor scenes. Most of the time, he could've been playing in his own show he was so disconnected. Maybe they won't bring him back if given the chance, maybe that really is it for him. I kinda liked the Jesse angle, but now Derek's dead, not so much! It was a brilliant, brilliant coup. I always thought, if he was going to go, he'd go out in a blaze of glory but his death was ultimately completely meaningless - he protected no one, he just rounded a corner and didn't check he was safe. Bang. No one is ever safe, indeed. I loved Sarah and John's reaction to it. I'm guessing most of the audience felt as sick and stunned as they did. <LOL> I really should keep reading through as I'm replying! ^^ I think it's only fair that if Derek's dead, Ellison should also go. No way should he still be prattling around and sanctifying the episodes if Derek's six feet under in a cardboard box. I hope John makes good on his cinema threat (otherwise, it's angry letter time <g>) People have railed at Sarah for trashing allies left, right and centre. Thing is though, look what happens when people do get involved. Charley; dead. Derek; dead. Andy Goode; dead. Ellison; soon to be dead, I hope. Riley; dead. The Connors seem almost pre-destined to have to fight this one out themselves. I don't think that's Sarah getting a God-complex, it just seems to be the way it works out, time after time. Every time she lets someone get close they wind up getting killed. It seems to always come full circle to John, Sarah and a machine. Wonder what we'll be left with on Friday?
|
|
terrasj
Sergeant
Rossbond Connor Crew
Posts: 445
|
Post by terrasj on Apr 7, 2009 0:41:56 GMT -5
Its definitely not what any of us expected, thats for sure. Usually thats reserved for by nameless bystanders or minor bad guys to get plugged by weapons fire.
But yet, IMHO, thats what makes it so shockingly surreal. Derek's death, just so sudden and out of the blue, and because he had let his training and gaurd down just for those few moments. Sometimes the good guys die, and not always in a heroic manner. (Star Wars: Episode 1 - Qui Gon Jin, Theed Palace reactor room, Naboo. By Darth Maul's saber speared through the chest). Star Wars reference aside, it just makes the show several notches for me more realistic. We're human, we make mistakes and have lapses in judgement. And Derek was no exception to that.
Its alot like how many of us are seasoned motor vehicle drivers, with a drivers license for 15yrs or more, but despite a good driving record - not smashing into anybody, we still are prone to making little mistakes. Most of the times we get away with it, but sometimes our lapses in judgment come with a price - usually someone smashing into our vehicle. Or sometimes we're in the right of way but get smashed into because of someone else's momentary error or carelessness. We've all been through it one time or another.
But the point is, Derek's death didn't have to be heroic simply because his family name is Reese, or die saving another's life like his younger brother did. He's a trained Resistance fighter, but he's also human, with faults like anyone else. And he had a moment of carelessness which cost him his life at the point blank range of a Terminator.
In a previous episode, Derek made a similar mistake, checking out a suspicious van himself. It got him kidnapped as bait for a trap laid for Cameron. Even Cameron fell for the trap, got shocked and rebooted. Luckily both survived those encounters, but this time Derek's careless luck ran out.
Sarah's done her share of careless and rash decisions that could've gotten herself killed several times already. Its just sheer luck she's still alive. But not so lucky that she got setup and walked into a police sting.
..................................
Btw, at the end of the episode, with John and Cameron watching the news broadcast in a store window, with the LA Fugitive news header... While I felt sad for John, and a spark of hope for John & Cameron being on their own for a little while, I couldn't help think about Kasey, their former land-lord and her boyfriend cop. Would Kasey be going OMFG!!!!! and freaking out or what?
I also loved the John / Cameron scene at their temporary wharehouse hiding place. Where John looks, and Savannah's asleep, and prompts to talk to Cameron in private. John's beginning to rely on Cameron, as in having accepted and brought her into his confidence. I can see how and why Future!John spent alot of time with Cameron in the same manner, just needing to talk to someone, someone he could trust implicitly. And the fact Present!John taking the bit of down time to honestly tell Cameron it wasn't his idea or plan to desert her or Derek with the un-announced detour to the lighthouse.
Cameron's bright, and a quick learner. She understood and figured it out for herself, it wasn't John leaving Cameron, but Sarah's own doing. Sarah kinda helped that notion along in previous episodes trying to instill a false John's unwantedness in Cameron.
I'll continue this post in the John/Cameron thread as its more appropriate there...
|
|
t101
Major
Posts: 716
|
Post by t101 on Apr 7, 2009 4:04:00 GMT -5
The undercover cop who came up behind Sarah looked like Trevor, Kacey's boyfriend.
|
|
|
Post by allergygal on Apr 7, 2009 4:40:35 GMT -5
I think John Henry is the one that ratted Sarah out to the police. Here's why: John Henry was told by Weaver that Savannah's survival depended on his. He feared Sarah Connor may want to destroy him because he has Mile's Dyson's code in him. Therefore, John Henry believed Sarah was a threat to Savannah. To ensure Savannah's survival, John Henry removed the threat of Sarah Connor by reporting her to the police. That's logical, right? The undercover cop who came up behind Sarah looked like Trevor, Kacey's boyfriend. Nah. Different actor.
|
|