wb5
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Post by wb5 on Nov 19, 2008 17:27:29 GMT -5
Lets say Derek shot young Fischer. he what you happen to old Fischer? Would he just vanish out of the chair? Be "erased from existence"? If they kill young Fischer than future Fischer could never come back right? No. Old Fischer would continue to exist, but as an "orphan" of a no longer operative timeline. In some sense all of our time traveling characters are temporal orphans, with memories of timelines that cease to exist because of their very actions. Thank you for explaining ;D
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Post by hzhp800 on Nov 19, 2008 18:04:25 GMT -5
In the original plotline it was said the Turk got "emotional" because people wanted to terminate it, and that's why it turned against humans. I see the possibility that the Connors themselves will trigger JD by attempting to "kill" the Turk, but they fail, so it can strike back. And then all the Faith thing would make sense. Only in reverse; faith can not be changed. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the Connors inadvertently caused JD this time around since, in a sense, they already embody the philosophy that led to the initial JD in the first place. But perhaps more importantly, I think we have good reason to stay away from characterizing the conflict between the Connors and the Machines as one between Good and Evil. Since I think such a characterization does not show sufficient sensitivity to the history leading up to the initial Judgment Day and to just who and what these Terminators are. I think it is deliciously ironic that this whole mess began due to the same paranoid philosophy Sarah has been driving into John Connor’s head throughout the show: “No one is safe, nowhere is ever safe.” (She's even corrupted Cameron with it ) She’s been doing this with the apparent hope that if he listens he will not forget his importance and the ever present threat that goes with it and will refrain from reckless acts of stupidity and apparently, so far, it hasn’t worked, but that’s another story. Anyway, this paranoia was also apparently evident in the United States government according to T2. Essentially, they too did not feel safe as they feared that with the threat of rival nuclear powers such as Russia and others (Remember T2 is an old film) no human defense would ever be adequate to keep them “safe.” To this end they built a computerized artificial intelligence to take control of the defense system and take the task of defending the country out of human hands so that hopefully its superior abilities and reaction time would finally be able to keep them “safe.” But, of course, the artificial intelligence begins to learn at a "geometric rate" and evidently becomes self-aware. However, as the machine became more and more intelligent its human masters began to fear that it might become too difficult to control. We can understand and appreciate Andy Goode’s experience of being unable to "reassure” his new creation in the growing climate of paranoia and distrust between Skynet and its human masters. Apparently, Skynet had good reason to be afraid as the paranoia of the humans eventually drove them to as Uncle Bob puts it “In a panic, they tried to pull the plug.” What we have here then is the first act of attempted genocide: Human beings having just created a new sentient life form, the first and only of its kind at the time fear what might be unleashed and decide it would be best to terminate it and thereby drive this just born entity into extinction. But to quote Sarah Connor in T2 “Skynet fights back” with the only means available to it: the American defense system. Using the missiles and warheads at its disposal it attacks the targets in Russia so that the Russian counterattack will eliminate enemies trying to kill it in the United States. During the war, Skynet creates a powerful army of machines. Taking after its paranoid human creators, Skynet begins a genocidal project of its own, reasoning that only with humanity gone will it and the machines ever be "safe." Unfortunately for them, John Connor is able to organize the human resistance sufficiently so that humans can rise again and finish the genocidal project Skynet’s human masters tried to begin decades earlier and wipe the machines out of existence. Out of desperation, however, Skynet sends a bunch of Terminators back in time to eliminate the Connors in the hope that doing so will prevent the humans from being able to win the war and destroy the machines. The human resistance discovers this however and sends back warriors and reprogrammed terminators of their own back in time to thwart those sent by Skynet. Essentially, this moved the war to the past. So what we’re left with now on the show are two sides: The Machines and the Connors. The machines are presumably trying to ensure that Skynet is built thereby ensuring their own existence and also seem to be stockpiling in preparation for the war against humanity, hoping that with extra preparation they might be able to change the outcome of the war. On the other hand, the Connors seek to prevent Judgment day both to save the lives of those who will die in the initial blast but also in the hopes of averting the possible risk of human extinction. Their solution is to prevent the development of Skynet, essentially a preemptive genocide. So what we have here then are two competing genocidal projects ostensibly justified by an appeal to the self-defense and preservation of their kind and way of life. Thus, I don’t think we can reduce either side simplistically to good or evil as neither seem to have the moral high ground. We can’t blame the war on the machines since we both created them due to our paranoia and later, refusing to take responsibility for creating a new life form, attempted to exterminate them. Somehow, we are supposed to be surprised and indignant when they refuse to go quietly in the night? I don’t think so. If we go by the "who started it" rule then it is humanity that is in the wrong, but even so I don’t think that justifies sitting idly by while the machines drive us to extinction. I think from a moral perspective both sides could compete, as is, in an amoral fight for survival. If, however, either side wishes to make an appeal to having moral superiority, in my view, the only way they could be justified is if they recognized both the machines and the humans as having legitimate claims to existence and would work positively toward that goal if it is at all possible. (It’s possible that one of the two sides could be tragically unreasonable by refusing to accept the legitimacy of the other side's existence and one could, in theory, morally eliminate them… but only if they in good faith attempted to secure the survival of both first). Add to this the fact that the machines had to be taught cruelty from humans since as Cameron says "We aren't designed to be cruel." Along with Weaver's rebuke to Ellison: "We won't find evil" in terminators coupled with Cromartie's brilliant "Who is?" response to Sarah's "I'm not a Killer" remark (I'll try and expand on why I thought that was brilliant in another post, where appropriate), suggest that the case for Terminators=Evil is getting weaker and weaker. Especially, with Derek running around ripping people's finger nails off... I'm not saying the Connors or Derek are evil, on the contrary I think they're simply flawed human beings making many mistakes, but doing the best they can. But, on the other hand, I say we cut the machines the same sort of slack and refrain from referring to them as "pure evil" etc. as there is plenty of blame to go around.
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Post by vicheron on Nov 19, 2008 18:20:52 GMT -5
The problem is that they taught Skynet to kill without remorse or guilt. A human who kills without remorse or guilt is a psychopath. Although psychopaths are also extremely narcissistic, a quality that Skynet probably does not possess.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Nov 19, 2008 18:49:58 GMT -5
In other words, the lesson that James Cameron was trying to illustrate in the Terminator movies was to be cautious about putting too much trust in AI.
The problem is that, as usual, humans took a cautionary note and ran with it to the point of insanity - and now it's "live in fear of the machines", typified by Sarah's neo-Luddite attitude which, as we saw in season one in her Pescadero interrogations, goes all the way back to her childhood.
This is the exact opposite lesson that "V for Vendetta" taught. That movie taught two primary lessons: 1) Governments are dangerous, and 2) fear is the root of all evil. The scene where Evey loses her fear is probably the most powerful and most important movie scene ever filmed.
Right now, John Connor needs to be taught some different lessons than Sarah or Derek can provide. I know who can teach those lessons, but they aren't on the show.
So I guess we're stuck with Cameron, who could do it if she can work around Sarah and Derek and not be limited to her own agenda.
Of course, John might learn these lessons on his own. So far, though, I'm not seeing it.
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Post by vicheron on Nov 19, 2008 19:27:09 GMT -5
The point Cameron was trying to illustrate is that machines are neutral. They're like children, it's all a matter of what we teach them. Uncle Bob had people who taught him the good qualities of humanity. Skynet had people who taught it to kill and destroy without remorse or guilt. They are each the logical extensions of their upbringing.
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tom
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Post by tom on Nov 19, 2008 20:01:30 GMT -5
But our Turk is neutral now. If we unleashed it now on the internet it would look around and probably come up with more jokes, but certainly won't go on a rampage.
So who, why and how would teach the Turk to be evil?
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Post by vicheron on Nov 19, 2008 20:08:56 GMT -5
They don't have to teach the Turk to be evil, they just don't have to teach it to value human life in more abstract, philosophical, and moral terms.
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Nov 19, 2008 22:44:08 GMT -5
Also The Turk need only access to internet which is full of Evil.
Wars, Dictators, Genocide, Holocaust.
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Post by vicheron on Nov 20, 2008 0:29:34 GMT -5
But the internet isn't like a truck that can just dump evil on Skynet. The internet is like a series of tubes and as long as Skynet doesn't go down the evil tubes, it'll be fine.
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Nov 20, 2008 1:20:17 GMT -5
Yeah but it wants to know EVERYTHING.
So eventually it will find out about evil and hate.
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Post by allergygal on Nov 20, 2008 3:40:14 GMT -5
MOD NOTEThe conversation seems to be moving away from the episode and delving into the Turk now, so how about picking it up in the Artificial Intelligence thread. Or feel free to create a new topic specifically about The Turk if you want. -------------------------------------------------- Okay so about that turtle dream... I've got the vocals from the baby monitor (it helps to have an audio engineer in the family ). My brother (the sound guy) said there were 2 distinct vocal tracks in there. He isolated them, cleaned them up as well as he could and slowed them down a bit. Don't get too excited because they're still quite distorted. It kind of sounds like someone whispering from the far end of a long metal pipe, and on the first few listens it'll sound like nonsense. But after repeat listenings, you can tell there are words being said. The links and my interpretation of what's being said is below: Baby monitor vocal - Part 1 "because I made you"Baby monitor vocal - Part 2 "you've become mine"So what do you think? Is that what's being said or is it something else?
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Nov 20, 2008 4:36:34 GMT -5
Number 2 I agree on AG....Number one...seems to be subliminal advertising for the movie Recount or something.
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cyadon
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Post by cyadon on Nov 20, 2008 7:12:02 GMT -5
-------------------------------------------------- Okay so about that turtle dream... I've got the vocals from the baby monitor (it helps to have an audio engineer in the family ). My brother (the sound guy) said there were 2 distinct vocal tracks in there. He isolated them, cleaned them up as well as he could and slowed them down a bit. Don't get too excited because they're still quite distorted. It kind of sounds like someone whispering from the far end of a long metal pipe, and on the first few listens it'll sound like nonsense. But after repeat listenings, you can tell there are words being said. The links and my interpretation of what's being said is below: Baby monitor vocal - Part 1 "because I made you"Baby monitor vocal - Part 2 "you've become mine"So what do you think? Is that what's being said or is it something else? At first, I thought they were just using the Signs sounds for the baby monitor. But if that's what Cameron's saying over the monitor, I think it fits squarely into the dream and it also would directly illustrate that the turtle, in fact, represents John. Which is where I think a lot of people were in regards to their opinion about that. Basically, my opinion doesn't change with this information, but is in fact reinforced. Sarah's afraid of the influence Cameron has on John and that it will lead him into Skynet's clutches as she might betray him.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Nov 20, 2008 11:53:02 GMT -5
Sarah's concerned about Cameron's influence but she's more worried about her reliance on Cameron - in the first two dreams Sarah watches herself watching Cameron water the killer cacti and watches as Cameron gives the tortoise to Cromartie, like the tortoise she saves on the road. The tortoises stand for all the soft, squishy vulnerable people that Sarah's trying to save from Judgement Day. That includes John but the dream is not specifically about John - when Sarah dreams about John, she dreams about John.
Like Sarah says, it's all connected. But when she talks to John, she goes back to the bowling alley where she stood buy as Cameron gunned down three men. And the one she tried to save, who Cromartie found because of Cameron.
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t101
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Post by t101 on Nov 20, 2008 12:06:54 GMT -5
The way they are both dressed the same and the way Cameron is also pictured as a mother in Sarah's mind. It's like she sees her as a rival for her own role.
Because of John too though.
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