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Post by allergygal on Nov 20, 2008 12:44:33 GMT -5
At first, I thought they were just using the Signs sounds for the baby monitor. But if that's what Cameron's saying over the monitor, I think it fits squarely into the dream and it also would directly illustrate that the turtle, in fact, represents John. Which is where I think a lot of people were in regards to their opinion about that. Basically, my opinion doesn't change with this information, but is in fact reinforced. Sarah's afraid of the influence Cameron has on John and that it will lead him into Skynet's clutches as she might betray him. I'd gone with the turtle dream being about the bowling alley guys until I heard the audio. If what I'm hearing in that audio is correct it really does reinforce that it's about Cameron's influence over John. Or could it be possible that it's not Cameron, but John (the turtle) talking? In S&D John said "I made her, I sent her back." If it's Cameron talking, then it's her being possessive of John. If it's John talking, it's him being possessive (too trusting?) of Cameron. It would still be the same idea, though. Either way, it's dangerous for John.
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tom
Private
I'll be back....as soon as I figure out how I can leave.
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Post by tom on Nov 20, 2008 12:50:17 GMT -5
Uh, that's a possibility!
I thought the same, that it's about Cameron's influence on John, but in the first dream Cam is taking care of the cactus and not about John. The cactus grabbing John is the consequence of what Cam did with the cactus. So, to me it implies that Cameron is doing something that -not directly- will take away John from Sarah.
Rival or a fellow mother? Sarah didn't see Cameron as a rival - and reverse. Cameron smiled at Sarah and Sarah was, well... just puzzled.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Nov 20, 2008 12:52:50 GMT -5
I thought the wardrobe represented the idea that they're supposed to be on the same side but Cameron's actions result in death. Kind of like her appearance - looks human, acts human (mostly), will kill you without blinking.
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Post by allergygal on Nov 21, 2008 15:05:46 GMT -5
Hey guess where there are 3 dots? The bullet holes that come through Cromartie's trunk while Sarah's in there in MFIIT. These dreams really do seem to be a direct result of the Mexico trip, especially the time she spent with Cromartie. He told her she and Cameron had made mistakes, that the boy in the bowling alley led him to the house and that Sarah should have killed herself. And all of that comes into play in the dreams.
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Post by littleb on Nov 21, 2008 17:14:13 GMT -5
Hey guess where there are 3 dots? The bullet holes that come through Cromartie's trunk while Sarah's in there in MFIIT. These dreams really do seem to be a direct result of the Mexico trip, especially the time she spent with Cromartie. He told her she and Cameron had made mistakes, that the boy in the bowling alley led him to the house and that Sarah should have killed herself. And all of that comes into play in the dreams. That first vocal sounds like it could be "because of me"? Which would link in to the whole Sarah blaming herself and eventual confessional to John scene. I think in future; lay off the local food...
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on Nov 21, 2008 22:28:58 GMT -5
Yeah, please let that be an opportunistic infection and not anything else. Although, I guess it takes more than one run-in with the stomach 'flu to indicate the onset of leukemia, right? Y'know, I've listened to the audio and without you telling me what it said, I'd swear that the second one was machine noise. Are you sure the cigar isn't just a long phallic object here?
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Post by littleb on Nov 22, 2008 5:09:37 GMT -5
Yeah, please let that be an opportunistic infection and not anything else. Although, I guess it takes more than one run-in with the stomach 'flu to indicate the onset of leukemia, right? Yeah, I don't personally think the writers were heading in that direction. I saw the fever as more of a plot device to give Sarah lots of excuses to have mad cheese dreams. Easiest thing would have been to tie it into her hand injury (although it would have been awfully quick to get an infection in that I guess) but sometimes even heroes get the flu FWIW... Leukaemia acute: bleeding gums, easy bruising (possibly not so easy to spot in Sarah's case, the number of times she gets thrown about!), headache, bone pain, symptoms of anaemia and susceptibility to infections. Can be caused by exposure to high levels of radiation. Oops. Can be fatal within weeks or months. Chronic Myeloid: fever, night sweats and weight loss, visual disturbances and abdo pain. Chronic phase may last several years, acute phase as above. Cause unknown. Hmm, I was reassured before I looked that up But I still don't think they're heading down that road... LOL. Sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar. Although I can vaguely hear "mine"... might just be my tinnitus though.
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Post by vicheron on Nov 22, 2008 5:14:29 GMT -5
It's interesting that there were actually Terminators there to witness Fischer's interrogations. You'd think it would be more efficient for Skynet to record Fischer's sessions while the Terminators are doing more important things and then just upload the information into them. Although it is possible that Skynet was actually using it as an opportunity to study the Terminator's learning capabilities. Even though all the Terminators witnessed the same thing, they may not have all learned the same and they may not use the knowledge in the same way.
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Post by hzhp800 on Nov 22, 2008 18:01:10 GMT -5
It's interesting that there were actually Terminators there to witness Fischer's interrogations. You'd think it would be more efficient for Skynet to record Fischer's sessions while the Terminators are doing more important things and then just upload the information into them. Although it is possible that Skynet was actually using it as an opportunity to study the Terminator's learning capabilities. Even though all the Terminators witnessed the same thing, they may not have all learned the same and they may not use the knowledge in the same way. Yup, those were my thoughts exactly. It didn't make sense to me at first and I still believe the writers did it primarily for the lasting and provocative image of an all Terminator audience eagerly observing. But one easy out for the writers (and perhaps the one they're relying on) is the fact that none of the images we saw were necessarily real or accurate. After all, Derek claims he never remembered. So all we saw were the products of Derek's imagination trying to imagine what Jesse was describing to him. Hence, we later see him alter the event replacing Jesse with himself. So, it's possible that the actual interrogation process and Skynet's methods of observing it were nothing at all like what we witnessed. That was just Derek's nightmarish attempt at visualizing it. His experience of the machines consist mostly of Terminators and not the seemingly lifeless cameras and monitoring equipment Skynet might have actually used (in that possible future). It would be in character, for instance, for Derek to say something like "I can just see those grinning tin cans watching me while he's grilling me, taking notes." Even if Skynet would have rejected the prospect of having Terminators actually watching the interrogation as impractical and wasteful. Still, it would be an interesting and insightful development on Skynet's part if vicheron is right and Skynet opted to use the sessions as a test of the Terminator's learning capabilities and the effects of individual perspective on what they learn. Speaking of which, vicheron, I hope to get involved in the Artificial Intelligence thread soon, as I find most of your posts there interesting, but I think I might have some slight but important disagreements I'd like to explore.
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Post by vicheron on Nov 22, 2008 20:22:44 GMT -5
It seems unlikely that it was all part of Derek's imagination since Jesse said it was like a "perverse theater" and that "they" were watching the interrogation which suggests that it wasn't just a room with a bunch of cameras around.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Nov 24, 2008 1:22:34 GMT -5
I tend to accept the show's representations of the future as "accurate" except in the specific case where young John enters the time chamber room in "D&D", as that was clearly a transition from unconsciousness to waking for Derek..
In this case, however, we first see Jesse and then Derek. Jesse later says "I was there" - meaning what? That she went through it, too? Or that she somehow saw Derek undergoing the process? How could she be "there" if she didn't undergo the process herself?
That whole business was not clear and is not clear. We don't know if any of that happened, to whom it might have happened, when it might have happened vis-a-vis the "D&D" episode in the interrogation house, and even in the "D&D" episode we don't know how long Derek was captive because Zack said it could have been days, weeks, or months - as Jesse said in this episode as well with regard to this situation.
And Derek clearly doesn't remember it at all - and supposedly in this week's episode is asking John if John is sure he would remember something - indicating that Derek is still not sure if the time line changed - and if so, WHY? There's no indication that anything Derek has done so far, other than shooting Andy Goode, has changed anything in the future - or if he simply has no memory of what happened.
And that brings back the "D&D" episode - why is it that Derek does not remember and nothing has been said about what happened in the basement room? And the Chopin? And thereby the evident connection to Cameron?
As for the whispered words, they sound to me like what is wrong about Sarah - that she's too controlling a mother - "Because I made you, you've become mine", i.e., because I'm your mother, I'm in charge.
OTOH, they could also refer to her perception of John's relationship with Cameron - because he reprogrammed her, Cameron has become "his". in Sarah's eyes, at least. I don't think John sees Cameron in that way at all. John may have feelings for Cameron, but it's not just because he (allegedly) reprogrammed her and send her back to protect himself. It would be because Cameron actually did save his life and is the only one he can trust - at least when she's not glitched! - to save his life when necessary.
And if in fact she came back on her own agenda, that even further weakens the concept.
The amusing thing is that I think it's the other way around - Cameron is trying to "possess" John for her own reasons! She's trying to "wrap him around her finger".
The problem is that whatever Sarah is dreaming, it's likely to be more about her perceptions than any reality, present or future. And given her inability to see things clearly, it's unlikely to be helpful to anybody. Like Dr. Ferguson suggests, it's more likely to be about the central conflict in her life - between her and John, and to a lesser degree, Cameron.
The problem for John and Cameron is that until she resolves these issues, she's likely to be even less competent than she has been to date - which is pretty bad news.
Despite "nobody likes a nag", Cameron may have to start putting her foot down - maybe literally - on both the Connors and Derek in order to straighten out the mess they've made of their situation.
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Post by vicheron on Nov 24, 2008 1:55:25 GMT -5
Jesse says "I was there" after Derek says "maybe it didn't happen to me" so she meant that she was there when Derek recovered from Fischer's interrogations.
We don't know if Derek remember what happened in the basement. Regardless, who is he supposed to talk to? No one else even knows that the basement was a traumatic event for him.
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Post by jcsorrels on Nov 24, 2008 15:06:10 GMT -5
Jesse says "I was there" after Derek says "maybe it didn't happen to me" so she meant that she was there when Derek recovered from Fischer's interrogations. We don't know if Derek remember what happened in the basement. Regardless, who is he supposed to talk to? No one else even knows that the basement was a traumatic event for him. Could it be that Fischer's interrogations and the basement were one and the same?
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cyadon
Major
A Random Sci-Fi Geek
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Post by cyadon on Nov 24, 2008 15:08:26 GMT -5
Jesse says "I was there" after Derek says "maybe it didn't happen to me" so she meant that she was there when Derek recovered from Fischer's interrogations. We don't know if Derek remember what happened in the basement. Regardless, who is he supposed to talk to? No one else even knows that the basement was a traumatic event for him. Could it be that Fischer's interrogations and the basement were one and the same? Personally, I don't think so. The basement happened to the Derek we know. Fischer happened to the Derek of the other timeline. We still don't know about the basement yet and I think the Chopin music from that basement was supposed to tie it, somehow, to Cameron and his hate for her.
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t101
Major
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Post by t101 on Nov 24, 2008 17:19:20 GMT -5
I have seen Zack "The Turk" either here or on the wiki confirm that the Fischer incident is not the basement scene from D&D. He also said (I think it was him) that the things Derek told Fischer as he tore the young Fischer's nails out is a clue as to what happened to Derek.
On the DVD documentary BAG says that Derek hates Cameron because he experienced her before. So I think that's the basement incident. I really want to see them talk about it at some point.
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