schmacky
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"Make yourself useful."
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Post by schmacky on Oct 11, 2008 3:46:57 GMT -5
I'm not sure why people keep saying that John Connor can't be killed as he's the future leader of mankind, why not? After all what military & leadership skills does John Connor posses that make him a better savior than say, Derek Reese? With Derek safely out of harms way in the past he's in an ideal position given his experience from the future to be the one that sets up and leads a resistance, in effect making John Connor who is yet to actually experience a war redundant. What better way for the series to finally break the shackles of the James Cameron legacy buy killing John Connor and have the brother of his father take John's place as the leader of the human resistance. The fly in the ointment of course is the evil Cam Bot who clearly has her own agenda. Oh man, what a bigger headache. It was bad enough that John Connor in the future sent back his father to impregnant his mother but this? This is crazier. Derek Reese, new savior of mankind, set back through time by his dead future nephew who by the way can't really exist if he never sends his father back from the future. Ow, my head hurts. Damn you traitorsgate, damn you!
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Post by richardstevenhack on Oct 11, 2008 18:02:12 GMT -5
Well, the problem with all this is of course that if you think for five minutes about the entire premise of the franchise, it makes ZERO sense. I mean, the whole thing makes absolutely no sense. It's probably the most successful franchise where the whole concept was absurd from the start.
But we knew that, right? ;D ;D
However, I hardly think Josh is going to eviscerate the entire franchise concept in order to create his own mythology. He could have done that from the start with his own concept.. Of course, he wouldn't have a "built-in" audience for a new show of his own.
But he isn't going to have THIS show if he messes with the concept too far.
Besides which, everybody on the show from Josh on down has been adamant about "honoring" the franchise, even as they want to explore other avenues of it, so it's not going to happen.
However, if there is a problem with the show, it's precisely that John Connor is not being given the sort of philosophical and strategic concepts he needs to beat Skynet. Unless you assume the future is just another down and dirty massacre of both sides with one side, presumably the humans, coming out on top simply because there are more of them - even after three biliion are killed - than there are Skynet machines. And that would cheapen the whole thing in my view. Might as well do another WWII movie where the US out-populates and outspends Germany and Japan, if the Terminator franchise is just another war story.
And I don't see John getting that from either Sarah, who has a really limited intellectual background despite her experiences over the years, or Derek, who, again, sees everything as tactics and has a mind clouded with PTSD and hatred and fear - the latter two characteristics aren't going to help Connor win.
The show needs to either bring someone in who can teach Connor what he needs to know or they need to put Connor into experiences where he learns this stuff on his own.
Because Traitorsgate is right when he says present John just isn't up to it. But the main problem is I can't see how he gets to that point, even given his internal changes this season. Tom says he gets to be more "bad-ass" - but that's not enough. It will take four years at least to be as "bad-ass" as Derek is, and then where is he? (Well, he's in a Skynet concentration camp, anyway - maybe they intend to leave the "learning part" to the T-4 and beyond movies.)
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traitorsgate
Sergeant
This is Cam. She's trained for an Off-World kick murder squad. Talk about Beauty and the Beast.
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Post by traitorsgate on Oct 11, 2008 19:15:30 GMT -5
My idea of killing off John Connor was not merely to make a flippant remark but it was as means to demonstrate that ever since T2 came into existence the whole premise of John Connor being mankind's only hope is simply absurd. The writers of T1 got it right when they built in the insurance policy that the time travel was a once only event as the machine was destroyed so it was only the Arnold Bot and Kyle that would ever come through.
Once James Cameron took the T1 premise and threw it out the window by re-introducing time travel in T2 then the Connors both became effectively redundant. The more people that come back with military experience from the future both at a tactical & strategic level, the more the Connors redundancy becomes apparent. To these soldiers John Connor is just another teenager. There's simply no reason to wast time with a teenager in the past trying to fashion him into some sort of latter day Alexander The Great because within the Terminator franchise the Time Travel Paradox doesn't exist.
So let the Cam Bot decapitate John Connor and post the video on YouTube for all the world to see like some sort of sordid Terminator Jihadist home video, it won't make a scrap of difference.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Oct 12, 2008 7:05:50 GMT -5
Well, one of the points my Transhuman fan fic characters would make is that once they're apprised of the situation, Connor also becomes redundant in that they're far more likely to be able to handle the task of stopping Skynet now than he is.
However, all these people from the future are useful because they bring intel back about how Skynet operates in the future - which could give clues as to its nature and strategy in the present. And Sarah and John DO have experience dealing with Terminators in the present - that's not worth nothing. So the Connors aren't entirely redundant. They have value - as long they don't screw up the mission by, well, screwing up.
The problem with Reese is precisely that. He knows how to handle Terminators in the future - but he doesn't really know how to live in the present (at least with the knowledge he had up until his fifteenth birthday, which makes him at least reasonably capable of functioning in present time.)
Future John ought to consider stuffing a 32GB USB flash key with all his concepts and plans and knowledge from the future up the next Resistance soldier's butt who comes through, so John can find out what he really needs to be doing.
On the other hand, the point of the franchise is the "Mary and Jesus" parable - so you can't just dump Sarah and John.
I don't have too much of a problem with the notion of John Connor being the only one who can defeat Skynet. Somebody has to be the one to do it, and it's his experiences which hopefully are what makes him capable of it. He's NOT "Jesus" because he isn't just dropped onto the Earth predestined to save the world. He has to develop that capability - and seeing that is what the entire franchise should be about.
It would be interesting to see the story grow bigger than that - but than it becomes another story. I just want a bigger story that still fits more or less within the basic Terminator franchise concept.
For instance, one point on which the franchise makes no sense is the necessity to keep the whole war secret from everybody - including those who might be able to turn the tide if they knew about it. I can see the Connor's hesitance to bring in the government - since the government would love to dismantle Cameron and make an army of Terminators to invade Pakistan with. Obviously certain forces in present time can't be trusted with the knowledge of how to build Skynet, Terminators, let alone time travel.
OTOH, the fact that the whole thing is kept secret means that the Connors and their associates are perpetually underground and hunted by those who might actually be able to help. The Connors own fear and paranoia render them less effective in fighting Skynet than if they did take the risk of opening up the war or taking the risk that it would accelerate rather than stop Judgment Day.
Which is why I recommended their starting a recruitment campaign. Martin Bedell, Charley Dixon, James Ellison, it's all a valuable start. But they need to start recruiting people with some serious smarts and capabilities. Which is what my fan fic will be about.
Bottom line: There's a fine balance between losing your "suspension of disbelief" and the desire to analyze the internal logic of a mythos. You have to walk that line carefully between uncritically accepting everything done in the story and being overly critical and nitpicking. ;D ;D
I'm not that interested in being critical just to be critical. I just want to see the best possible story arcs that explore the most interesting concepts while avoiding the hackneyed stuff and stuff that is pure fantasy (this being more of a "hard science" show despite the time travel fantasy stuff.) The new show, "Fringe", seems to be doing well in that area - dealing with "fringe" concepts while making them seem scientifically feasible and tacking on a "huge conspiracy" behind it all.
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traitorsgate
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This is Cam. She's trained for an Off-World kick murder squad. Talk about Beauty and the Beast.
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Post by traitorsgate on Oct 18, 2008 5:02:41 GMT -5
So now that it appears that FOX have ordered the back nine episodes and the first thirteen episodes have all but been completed, has the character in question already been killed off, under the assumption that the series wasn't going to get a full run?
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Post by richardstevenhack on Oct 19, 2008 15:49:39 GMT -5
My guess is the character dies in episode 13, since that episode and episode 5 were supposed to be "biggies".
Which will make episodes 14 and 15, already written, interesting.
And the next question is, what will they do for a season finale? That would be the other logical place for a character to die - or come back if Josh decides they don't really need to stay dead.
I will be highly upset if Cameron is killed off in episode 13, then suddenly reappears (maybe we don't know if it's the SAME Cameron) at the end of episode 22. I mean, as long as Summer stays on the show, that will be good - but it will be torture to watch the show from 13 to 22 to find out.
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timstuff
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Post by timstuff on Oct 22, 2008 7:56:43 GMT -5
They're not going to kill Cameron. She's probably the most popular character next to Sarah Connor herself, or arguably the most popular character. She's simply not a character that they can afford to kill off because they'd be taking away the main reason for the character's fans to keep watching.
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tom
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Post by tom on Oct 22, 2008 16:10:58 GMT -5
Gotta be someone else, if they would be dumb enough to kill of Cam even for just a few episodes, the rating would go lower than they could imagine. Tho' they didn't mentioned how long a dead should be dead, so maybe the character dies at the very end of the episode and comes back to life in the beginning of the next episode. Kinda like Noah in Heroes.
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Oct 22, 2008 18:19:07 GMT -5
Nope.
They said Dead was Dead.
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Oct 23, 2008 4:28:48 GMT -5
Nope. They said Dead was Dead. Sure, perhaps technically or something. Not saying they'll do this, but they could - someone dies technically like their heart stops or something, but then someone does CPR and brought back to life. They were dead. Dead is dead, but people can "come back" from that.
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Post by DerekThomasReese on Oct 23, 2008 6:22:26 GMT -5
I kinda got a theory.In the new trailers for upcoming episode's it looks like the entire Connor clan along with Ellison is going to mexico (idk why) and they face off against Cromartie.Now my theory is in the trailer Cromartie is in a church being shot at whilst shooting at two people (2 white males John and Derek) and Cameron walks in behind him and it looks like they might have a face off.Then maybe it's later on in the episode or earlier on in the episode idk Ellison is driving a car and it looks like he is trying to protect John whilst getting shot at by Cromartie.So what i'm saying is maybe Cromartie shoots John and kills him (and i mean kills him,thats it the future leader of mankind is dead) so maybe after everything goes to hell they kill Cromartie and Derek realising that the resistance still needs a leader in John Connor he rises up and takes his place.I mean it is plausible since he does have the neccesary information to lead the resistance and he knows all about the battles that they won and lost.Plus no would question him at being John Connor since the only people who know he isn't Connor is himself,Cameron,Sarah,Charley and Ellison and they would'nt say jack since they know if they did then the entire resistance would fall apart.Now the only big problem with that would be that Sarah would have to remain hidden if she doesn't die cos who the hell is gonna believe that a thirty year old woman gave birth to a 36 year old man.It's all theory but an interesting one at that.
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Oct 23, 2008 13:44:57 GMT -5
Hmm, totally not following that theory. First off all, they showed Sarah and Derek shooting down at Cromartie. And in that clip where Ellison is driving John and Cromartie is shooting... John moved, so I don't think he's gonna die. I don't think he'll die period.
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Post by antigone01 on Oct 25, 2008 17:45:07 GMT -5
I think Cromartie or Charley will die. Both of those characters are near their expiration dates, IMO. Although I like Charley and he can be useful to the Connors - he is also a liability. Also, Charley wasn't mentioned in the new eps was he? So, I don't know if he is going to be set up to be killed or not. In any event, I think it is one of these two. I don't think they are done with Ellison yet, although it is possible that he dies soon. Dying in a church would be ironic for him, though, since he is religious.
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Post by antigone01 on Oct 25, 2008 18:00:44 GMT -5
Nope. They said Dead was Dead. Sure, perhaps technically or something. Not saying they'll do this, but they could - someone dies technically like their heart stops or something, but then someone does CPR and brought back to life. They were dead. Dead is dead, but people can "come back" from that. Well I suppose they could do this. Other shows have before. It would be a bit of a let down, but it could happen. I could actually see them doing this to Sarah for a bigger shocker momentarily thinking she is dead, then she is resuscitated or something.
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t101
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Post by t101 on Jan 14, 2009 19:55:30 GMT -5
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