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Post by Derek Reese on Jul 6, 2008 16:31:00 GMT -5
Here's to it.
Wonder exactly how many repairs are going to have to be made over the duration after this point.
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Post by driftlight23 on Jul 6, 2008 16:38:50 GMT -5
Well, those staples have to get in Cam's face somehow, but after this new bunch of speculation I do wonder if she actually does it to herself. But if the chip thing's right, then surely there has to be more John-related 'head surgery' on the way? Her skin will heal fine on its own. If there's more damage to her endoskeleton than that... hmmm. I'm just waiting for the dozens of John/Cameron vids set to 'Fix You' by Coldplay that will surely appear in the wake of all this.
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Post by Derek Reese on Jul 6, 2008 16:43:16 GMT -5
I'm very curious to see what it does to her mental process and how that'll effect the mission. Will it make her more human....or will it a little twist to things in the long run?
I can see them getting even closer and Cameron malfunction, going back to old school Terminator objectives.
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Post by driftlight23 on Jul 6, 2008 16:58:25 GMT -5
Ah, there's always going to be a little twist. Always. Cam's potential development absolutely fascinates me - I'm not sure I want to see her become fully human in terms of how her personality is - ie, like she was in the pilot - because I don't think that's very true to who she is - but I think we could see her edge closer to full self-awareness and a more complex take on things, and develop more emotions, even if she expresses them in a very Cam-like way. The 'strategic jealousy' thing is interesting because it hints that Cameron is possibly able to function as John's bodyguard again, so maybe she does get fixed to some extent, enough that they trust her? The question is, how well has she been fixed, and secondly, what is the lasting effect on her? I do wonder if we're going to see some psychological development that might be quite tricky for her to handle, and her doing it very wrong, or not understanding what it is that's happening. And John being the focus of that, for better or for worse. Which will make for interesting times on the Good Ship J/Cam.
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Post by Derek Reese on Jul 6, 2008 17:12:35 GMT -5
I agree with you on pretty much everything there, Drift.
I'm extremely curious to see if John does have some sembalance of feelings for her in some form.
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Post by driftlight23 on Jul 6, 2008 17:21:07 GMT -5
If he really did build her, that might translate into an increased sense of responsibility for her. Which could turn into something romantic, or possibly something more family-oriented. For all we know, Future!John regards Cameron as some kind of surrogate daughter. It's all up for grabs. Of course, the chemistry between Dekker and Glau is both undeniable and very popular, so...
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Post by Derek Reese on Jul 6, 2008 17:31:50 GMT -5
There's a door for either one.
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Post by vicheron on Jul 6, 2008 20:35:29 GMT -5
Cameron is already self aware. All Terminators are self aware. The Terminator looked in a mirror and recognized that the person in the mirror is himself, that's the very definition of self-awareness.
Cameron is developing consciousness and self awareness is only one component. She has to develop a deeper sense of metacognition, the ability to think about thinking. She's already capable of discerning goal oriented thoughts within others. However, she has yet to show an ability to understand deeper thought processes such as drive, motivation, dreams, etc.
It's questionable whether or not Cameron can actually develop the human range of emotions. So many emotions are based on biology so it's unlikely that she can acquire them. It's likely impossible for Cameron to experience disgust. Happiness, amusement, and awe seem very unlikely. Without the various neurochemicals that stimulate and relax the brain, even if Cameron does develop emotions, they will likely be very "weak" compared to humans.
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Post by Derek Reese on Jul 6, 2008 22:12:50 GMT -5
That developed metacognition doesn't limit emotional capability. Maybe with our current technology yes, but there's no defining limit on what a Terminator is truly capable. Just because their "machines" doesn't mean their not fully capable of it. Humans in their own right could be regarded as "machines." The only thing that is truly different is the engine that is running one's body and the aging process.
Of course, their mental process is going to being different than ours in structure and what orders they follow, but their may not be as many limitations as we believe.
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Post by vicheron on Jul 7, 2008 8:43:47 GMT -5
But physiological reponses are an integral part in the development of emotions. It's not just what neurology, psychology, and philosphy tells us but try to fully recollect your own emotional experiences and think of how big of a role the physical component played. It may be possible to list the conditions which bring about an emotional response without mentioning any physical effects but it's almost impossible to even describe an emotion without mentioning the physiological response.
Like I said before, some emotions are more dependent upon a physiological reponse than others. For example, disgust is almost entirely physical while happiness and humor are more cerebral. I think that it's possible for Cameron to learn some of the more cerebral emotions while the more instinct based emotions could be beyond her. Just think about it, if your hairs aren't standing up, your muscles aren't tense, and you don't have increased heart rate, blood pressure, perspiration, and adrenaline levels, can you really say that you're angry or afraid? Even when people think about things that anger them their heart rate and blood pressure goes up.
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t101
Major
Posts: 716
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Post by t101 on Jul 7, 2008 10:00:46 GMT -5
Obviously she doesn't process things the same way a living organism does. But she is designed to fit in among humans, this is what separates one of these machines from just AI. Not only are they intelligent, they are hardwired to function in a human society (like humans are hardwired with certain instincts).
Potentially this could be taken anywhere. In Andy's interpretation Skynet was angry and afraid. However that manifested, it's not beyond imagination that a self-aware intelligence could process those basic survival emotions without a physical response. After all fear or anger do not begin as physical reactions, they only manifest themselves this way after our brain has processed them as such.
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Post by vicheron on Jul 7, 2008 10:48:18 GMT -5
But no situation is inherently emotional. You can't even say that being in a life threatening situation is entirely fearful because there are actually people who are excited by such situations. It is our response to a situation that creates the emotion. There are even people who can't experience certain emotions due to brain damage. Just because two people have the same response to the same situation does not mean that they both experienced the same emotions. Even people who have suffered brain damage and can't feel fear or acquire new fears are able to use reason to deal with a "fearful" situation similar to someone who can feel fear.
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t101
Major
Posts: 716
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Post by t101 on Jul 7, 2008 11:42:25 GMT -5
Which all the more still makes them the same despite not processing things the same way. Emotions are just a way we process our environment. In the case of the brain damaged person their nervous system is simply broken. A Terminator has an equivalent of the nervous system which would allow them to process these same things in their own unique way.
I think given the way our world works for everyone. An intelligence built to resemble us would have a lot in common with us psychologically. Including a whole bunch of social emotional responses.
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Post by Derek Reese on Jul 7, 2008 14:12:49 GMT -5
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Post by Erika on Jul 7, 2008 19:20:58 GMT -5
Also guys - remember that this is in the non-spoilers board - if you're going to post stuff that might contain spoilers give some sort of an alert.
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