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Post by Derek Reese on Jul 28, 2008 15:18:50 GMT -5
It could happen especially since he's got some of his brother's traits.
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Post by allergygal on Dec 3, 2009 2:27:54 GMT -5
I just reread this thread and it's rather funny to see my own posts go from NO! to well, maybe, but they really don't have any chemistry to OMG SARAH/DEREK! I don't know if I should blame k8ie for totally corrupting me or just blame the thousands of times (slight exaggeration) I watched season one. How could I have ever thought Sarah and Derek had no chemistry?! I was clearly blinded by my Sarah/Charley love. Or smoking crack.
So WTF was the dealio with bringing in Jesse in season 2 to spoil all the delicious tension between Sarah and Derek? We started off okay with Derek being all Sarah-possessive in the ambo with Charley in S&D and twisting the knife in Sarah's gut over PB&J. Automatic gave us the best Sarah/Derek moment of the season when Sarah got all up in his face with "and the other side of that equation is maybe not". Mousetrap even had a bit of Sarah/Derek goodness despite the episode dripping with Sarah/Charley/Michelle issues. Not long after, though, Jesse shows up and the trail goes freaking cold. Bleh.
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Post by littleb on Dec 3, 2009 10:28:27 GMT -5
I just reread this thread and it's rather funny to see my own posts go from NO! to well, maybe, but they really don't have any chemistry to OMG SARAH/DEREK! LOL. I don't think I ever backtracked through this thread. I loved your page one comment: "Right now, though, I don't feel any chemistry between them." I can imagine the foot stamping denial: "no no no no nonononononono: KYLE!" Or doing both at the same time, which is some seriously skilled multi-tasking I never got the Sarah/Charley love. He always seemed so damn nice, so normal (which I guess was the point!). Derek OTOH, badass, naughty boy with all his sneaky motives, I just loved from the outset. I think a lot of that had to do with BAG being surprisingly awesome. He had me from his first conversation with Ellison "we're all gonna die." His inflection on that line was just pitch-perfect. And I loved him straight away with Sarah; "you're prettier than your picture". Hoo boy. The deal was that the writers made an almighty cock-up by not knowing what a good thing they had there. We've said it before but I'll say it again. S2 split the team and caused all the schisms way too soon. Nine episodes of building your characters and establishing your relationships is not enough for you then to go straight into tearing them down. Derek might as well have been in his own show for much of S2 which weakened the dynamic just at the point where - with Sarah and John divided - it needed strengthening. "Guess he really does have a wife." I mean, what's not to love about Derek?! I love the ambo conversation. Derek's known Sarah for a matter of weeks and he's still managed to get the measure of her down to a tee: "Think she's gonna go with you, or let you take care of her, 'cause it's not gonna happen. She left you at the altar for a reason." I always got the impression that Charley wanted to fix everything for Sarah (and by implication, fix Sarah herself) but with Derek, you just figure he kinda likes her the way she is - flaws and all. Lot of love for Mousetrap . Sarah's "come if you want" (but I'm going anyway). I love that the episode depicted them as soldiers. Tactical, ready with the weapons and emotionally pretty damn cold. From Sarah's "I thought it would be easier. I thought you'd be dead." To Derek's "if I'm not back in 15 minutes... leave without me." The way they interact in that ep shows them as very similar characters in a lot of ways. It gives you their history (war, fighting, survival, watching people you love die) without saying a word about it. I think after that, Good Wound was the only great D&S episode (and it was pretty bloody great!) I'll ship 'em til the cows come home but the show inexplicably did its very utmost to wreck the good thing they'd started.
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Post by gothamite66 on Dec 3, 2009 11:54:57 GMT -5
So WTF was the dealio with bringing in Jesse in season 2 to spoil all the delicious tension between Sarah and Derek? The deal was that the writers made an almighty cock-up by not knowing what a good thing they had there. I'm gonna blame the suits at FOX for that. They're the ones that made Josh and Co. introduce Riley as a love interest and what, a sixteen year old girl from an apocalyptic future is gonna travel in time and cozy on up to John all by her lonesome. No. Hence the introduction of Jesse as the evil mastermind and the destruction of the Sarah/Derek fun. Yes, they're the one's to blame. IMHO.
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Post by allergygal on Dec 3, 2009 15:08:04 GMT -5
LOL. I don't think I ever backtracked through this thread. I loved your page one comment: "Right now, though, I don't feel any chemistry between them." I can imagine the foot stamping denial: "no no no no nonononononono: KYLE!" I never got the Sarah/Charley love. He always seemed so damn nice, so normal (which I guess was the point!). Derek OTOH, badass, naughty boy with all his sneaky motives, I just loved from the outset. I think a lot of that had to do with BAG being surprisingly awesome. He had me from his first conversation with Ellison "we're all gonna die." His inflection on that line was just pitch-perfect. And I loved him straight away with Sarah; "you're prettier than your picture". Hoo boy. The deal was that the writers made an almighty cock-up by not knowing what a good thing they had there. We've said it before but I'll say it again. S2 split the team and caused all the schisms way too soon. Nine episodes of building your characters and establishing your relationships is not enough for you then to go straight into tearing them down. Derek might as well have been in his own show for much of S2 which weakened the dynamic just at the point where - with Sarah and John divided - it needed strengthening. Hee. Actually, it wasn't even Kyle that kept me from embracing Sarah/Derek originally, it was Charley. I never thought Sarah and Charley would be happily ever after, but I also couldn't jump from "I'm thinking I love you... always remember that" to Sarah digging the bad boy (even one with a kitty poster on the wall). Derek had too many strikes against him, not the least of which was that he killed dear, sweet Andy Goode. But even I couldn't live in denial forever. There was definitely something there with Sarah and Derek and I seriously don't know how the writers were so oblivious to it. Did they not see how those two came across on screen? Too much free crack in the writer's room. I always got the impression that Charley wanted to fix everything for Sarah (and by implication, fix Sarah herself) but with Derek, you just figure he kinda likes her the way she is - flaws and all. Lot of love for Mousetrap . Sarah's "come if you want" (but I'm going anyway). I love that the episode depicted them as soldiers. Tactical, ready with the weapons and emotionally pretty damn cold. From Sarah's "I thought it would be easier. I thought you'd be dead." To Derek's "if I'm not back in 15 minutes... leave without me." The way they interact in that ep shows them as very similar characters in a lot of ways. It gives you their history (war, fighting, survival, watching people you love die) without saying a word about it. I think after that, Good Wound was the only great D&S episode (and it was pretty bloody great!) I'll ship 'em til the cows come home but the show inexplicably did its very utmost to wreck the good thing they'd started. We're thrown Charley during the brief glimpse at normal life in the pilot. But you know they can't ever be together. He's just there to remind Sarah of what she can't have while Derek is there to smack her in the face with the reality of her life. If you stuck Derek and Charley into a blender with a scoop of ice cream, you'd get a Kyle shake. That's why Sarah and Kyle were and always will be and probably why the show never took a Sarah/Derek path. But it still felt very organic. Sarah and Derek were so wrong for each other, but that's what made it so fun. I'm gonna blame the suits at FOX for that. They're the ones that made Josh and Co. introduce Riley as a love interest and what, a sixteen year old girl from an apocalyptic future is gonna travel in time and cozy on up to John all by her lonesome. No. Hence the introduction of Jesse as the evil mastermind and the destruction of the Sarah/Derek fun. Yes, they're the one's to blame. IMHO. I don't think we can blame the Fox suits on this one. Jesse didn't need to be Derek's lover for the story to play out. Now if Derek hadn't died after all that, maybe it could've been a building block for Sarah/Derek. With Charley dead and Jesse having betrayed, Sarah and Derek had nothing left of their former lives anymore. They had nothing but the fight, John, and each other. But... we got a bullet to the freaking head instead.
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figaruna
Refugee
avatar by rdequina on LJ
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Post by figaruna on Dec 3, 2009 22:25:58 GMT -5
If you stuck Derek and Charley into a blender with a scoop of ice cream, you'd get a Kyle shake. This line had me rollin'. LOLOLOL! I like Sarah/Derek as much as the rest of y'all (hi, scc fic by littleb and indiefic!!), but I too have a soft spot in my heart for Sarah/Charley. I think reading scc fic by devra started my S/C sympathy/love.
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Post by gothamite66 on Dec 3, 2009 23:38:10 GMT -5
I like Sarah/Derek as much as the rest of y'all (hi, scc fic by littleb and indiefic!!), but I too have a soft spot in my heart for Sarah/Charley. Yes. That.
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Post by littleb on Dec 4, 2009 5:22:26 GMT -5
LOL. I don't think I ever backtracked through this thread. I loved your page one comment: "Right now, though, I don't feel any chemistry between them." I can imagine the foot stamping denial: "no no no no nonononononono: KYLE!" Hee. Actually, it wasn't even Kyle that kept me from embracing Sarah/Derek originally, it was Charley. I never thought Sarah and Charley would be happily ever after, but I also couldn't jump from "I'm thinking I love you... always remember that" to Sarah digging the bad boy (even one with a kitty poster on the wall). Derek had too many strikes against him, not the least of which was that he killed dear, sweet Andy Goode. Yeah, Andy Goode was a real problem. (Hence my need to fic-fix!) but Charley was never an obstacle for me. Sarah ditched him so quickly I got the feeling that her love for him was more of an ideal than anything tangible. That she was trying to persuade herself that the normal life she had with him was something she wanted. I know she would ditch anyone in a heartbeat if she felt John was in danger, but if she really trusted Charley she would've told him the truth. I could even see her sticking with Charley cos she thought he was a good dad for John. I'm all for love at first sight, but I don't think Sarah would allow herself to drop her guard that easily (i.e in the six month whirlwind with Charley) without there being something else in it, and that something else was probably the fact that John did love Charley and they made a happy little family for a while. LOL. Possibly. I remember reading something about them not going there... I think it was Lena said it'd be too "incestuous." But it would have added a whole lovely new set of complications to the thing. Hell, I'm not even advocating a relationship per se, just some SCENES together would have been a bloody start. They couldn't even manage that come the latter half of S2. Exactly. Kinda, look at what you could've won. If you were still a waitress... with bad hair... It was only a matter of time before she ran again. Dude! I am totally with Fig there, that was gross. And funny. But mainly gross. I was thinking... (happens on occasion!) Derek's the only bloke aside from Kyle who really knows Sarah. Not necessarily from an emotional POV but certainly from a historical one. Derek knows exactly what her mission is, what her life is, what her name is, and what she's fighting for. He knows what she's up against. He's lived the consequences of her failure (if you read it that way - Derek's from a post J-day world) so he shares her goals in wanting that never to happen even if their motives/methods are different. It gives them an instant connection, an instant honesty. I guess Sarah gets to be herself around Derek and vice versa. No secrets, no need for a pseudonym, no need to pretend she's something she's not. Even if she doesn't fall madly in bed with him, just having someone around that she can level with is a good place to start. Or it would've been had the writers not been intent on destroying such a potentially good thing. I'm gonna blame the suits at FOX for that. I don't think we can blame the Fox suits on this one. Me either. Although, I'd like to. Cos I pretty much like to blame Fox for everything. Jesse didn't need to be Derek's lover for the story to play out. Now if Derek hadn't died after all that, maybe it could've been a building block for Sarah/Derek. With Charley dead and Jesse having betrayed, Sarah and Derek had nothing left of their former lives anymore. They had nothing but the fight, John, and each other. But... we got a bullet to the freaking head instead. I guess they painted themselves into a corner with Derek (or thought they had) and couldn't see a point where Sarah would ever trust him again. Problem is, she didn't ever really trust him after Andy, but they worked around that (and the Jesse thing wasn't really all that dire - hell, Sarah considered offing Riley herself at one point!) The easy way out was a bullet and a redux, start from scratch Derek. Which was a little too easy really. I liked my mucked-up, frakked-up Derek. You make a man make mistakes, you should have the balls to allow him to work through them. As fabulous and unexpected as Derek's death was, it was a bit of a let-off for the writers.
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Post by allergygal on Dec 5, 2009 3:48:43 GMT -5
Charley was never an obstacle for me. Sarah ditched him so quickly I got the feeling that her love for him was more of an ideal than anything tangible. That she was trying to persuade herself that the normal life she had with him was something she wanted. I know she would ditch anyone in a heartbeat if she felt John was in danger, but if she really trusted Charley she would've told him the truth. I could even see her sticking with Charley cos she thought he was a good dad for John. I'm all for love at first sight, but I don't think Sarah would allow herself to drop her guard that easily (i.e in the six month whirlwind with Charley) without there being something else in it, and that something else was probably the fact that John did love Charley and they made a happy little family for a while. I think Sarah really did love Charley, but John was right that she was freaking out. He gave her a ring and then real life came calling in her dreams again. Somewhere in her head, she knew it would never work because she could never accept that the threat was gone, that John was safe and that the world wasn't going to get blown up by a self-aware machine. Like Charley said later, "We never had a chance." Killer robots from the future? There's no way she could've told him the whole story back then. He would've thought she was completely nuts. It wasn't really about trust. I think it was Lena said it'd be too "incestuous." Too incestuous? Really? What's that HBO project Lena just finished? But it would have added a whole lovely new set of complications to the thing. Hell, I'm not even advocating a relationship per se, just some SCENES together would have been a bloody start. They couldn't even manage that come the latter half of S2. I totally agree. With the baggage those two have, any relationship would've been fraught with complications... and I would've loved every minute of it! But it's the emotional weight of Kyle between them and the power struggle that made them so awesome. Whether or not they ever ended up in bed together, I just wanted more of them. I was thinking... (happens on occasion!) Derek's the only bloke aside from Kyle who really knows Sarah. Not necessarily from an emotional POV but certainly from a historical one. Derek knows exactly what her mission is, what her life is, what her name is, and what she's fighting for. He knows what she's up against. He's lived the consequences of her failure (if you read it that way - Derek's from a post J-day world) so he shares her goals in wanting that never to happen even if their motives/methods are different. It gives them an instant connection, an instant honesty. I guess Sarah gets to be herself around Derek and vice versa. No secrets, no need for a pseudonym, no need to pretend she's something she's not. Even if she doesn't fall madly in bed with him, just having someone around that she can level with is a good place to start. Or it would've been had the writers not been intent on destroying such a potentially good thing. Exactly! Karma for that. That second phone call in Good Wound really summed up everything that's good about Sarah and Derek so perfectly. Despite their differences, there was a level of understanding between them that never needed to be said. I never thought about Derek being from a future of Sarah's failure. I'm not sure that's a fair way to look at it, though, since we've been following *this* Sarah since she first learned about the future from Kyle in T1 and judgement day has yet to happen. Derek 2.0 (BTR Derek) is, however, living the consequences of her failure. But I don't care about him anyway. I guess they painted themselves into a corner with Derek (or thought they had) and couldn't see a point where Sarah would ever trust him again. Problem is, she didn't ever really trust him after Andy, but they worked around that (and the Jesse thing wasn't really all that dire - hell, Sarah considered offing Riley herself at one point!) The easy way out was a bullet and a redux, start from scratch Derek. Which was a little too easy really. I liked my mucked-up, frakked-up Derek. You make a man make mistakes, you should have the balls to allow him to work through them. As fabulous and unexpected as Derek's death was, it was a bit of a let-off for the writers. We know Sarah has strong feelings about liars, but if he ever just explained why he killed Andy, she would've understood. She'd almost done the same thing herself with Miles, so one conversation about Andy could've taken that strike away from Derek. The Jesse deception was a much bigger deal, I think, because it involved John. That's one I don't think they could've come back from very easily. But once John was gone they would've moved past it eventually (if Derek hadn't died, I mean). I don't like the idea of starting over with a new Derek either. Any Derek that's all smiley and welcoming to freaky naked boy in Kyle's jacket is not a Derek that could ever replace *Derek*. So if there was any intention of ever creating a relationship for Sarah on the show, I can only assume they were planning a nice-guy Derek or a bad-boy Kyle. Either of those would be epic fail for me, so John needs to immediately return to a point before Derek's death and prevent it. And hell, if he was going to do that, he'd probably jump back far enough to save Charley. And Michelle. There's no way to undo Jesse though... damn it
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Post by littleb on Dec 5, 2009 8:15:14 GMT -5
Charley was never an obstacle for me. Sarah ditched him so quickly I got the feeling that her love for him was more of an ideal than anything tangible. I think Sarah really did love Charley, but John was right that she was freaking out. He gave her a ring and then real life came calling in her dreams again. Somewhere in her head, she knew it would never work because she could never accept that the threat was gone, that John was safe and that the world wasn't going to get blown up by a self-aware machine. Like Charley said later, "We never had a chance." They never did. I think Sarah loved the idea of him. A father figure for John, a stable, safe relationship for her. A job and a nice house. But Sarah's life has never been stable or safe and it was just a matter of time. I don't think the dream was anything precognitive, it was just her subconscious telling her not to get comfortable or complacent. Ultimately, Charley couldn't protect John, he didn't own a gun or have any skills - aside from his Super!Paramedic skills - that she could utilise. If the metal came knocking, he was going to be a liability as opposed to someone who could fight alongside her. Killer robots from the future? There's no way she could've told him the whole story back then. He would've thought she was completely nuts. It wasn't really about trust. I dunno. He thought Ellison was nuts when he was in the police station after her disappearance, but it's different coming from a stranger than someone you love. Sarah was potentially willing to sit Andy Goode down and tell him everything, she could've had the same inclination with Charley had her instincts headed in that direction (but her instincts told her to run, I'm guessing because she wanted Charley safe and also knew he'd be a burden if he ran with them.) Too incestuous? Really? What's that HBO project Lena just finished? *laughs* Girl's got double-standards... and a body double *sobs* But it would have added a whole lovely new set of complications to the thing. Hell, I'm not even advocating a relationship per se, just some SCENES together would have been a bloody start. They couldn't even manage that come the latter half of S2. I totally agree. With the baggage those two have, any relationship would've been fraught with complications... and I would've loved every minute of it! But it's the emotional weight of Kyle between them and the power struggle that made them so awesome. Whether or not they ever ended up in bed together, I just wanted more of them. *sigh* Me too. So we're left hanging with the tiny snippets they did give us; "You called me Reese again. That's what you used to call him, isn't it?" So much promise and they buggered it up. I was thinking... (happens on occasion!) Derek's the only bloke aside from Kyle who really knows Sarah. Not necessarily from an emotional POV but certainly from a historical one. Derek knows exactly what her mission is, what her life is, what her name is, and what she's fighting for. He knows what she's up against. Heh. Ta. I probably shouldn't think about this show as much as I do "Don't worry about John." That said everything. She couldn't ask him, she couldn't even tell him exactly what was going on (just watch that face she pulls just before she says "I gotta problem with this leg" it speaks volumes!) but he got the message perfectly anyway. I might've messed up, I might die. Look after my son.And he tells her just what she needs to know. No sentiment. No goodbye. He just hangs up. It's an awesome bit of writing for both of them. No, I don't think it is a fair way to look at it! But J-Day happened for our Derek and maybe Sarah does wonder how that came about. Derek 2.0. Bleh. I guess they painted themselves into a corner with Derek (or thought they had) and couldn't see a point where Sarah would ever trust him again. Problem is, she didn't ever really trust him after Andy, but they worked around that. We know Sarah has strong feelings about liars, but if he ever just explained why he killed Andy, she would've understood. She'd almost done the same thing herself with Miles, so one conversation about Andy could've taken that strike away from Derek. Totally. The fact that he messed up is something she can surely relate to. The fact that it wasn't just a cold-blooded kill, that he knew and loved the person he was murdering gives a whole new depth to the act. One that I think Sarah would have seen in a new light, had they ever given Derek the chance to explain. He never got a shot at redemption, did he? Messes up, takes a bullet whilst making (for a seasoned soldier) a really stupid tactical move. The Jesse deception was a much bigger deal, I think, because it involved John. That's one I don't think they could've come back from very easily. But once John was gone they would've moved past it eventually (if Derek hadn't died, I mean). True. But then, John was ready to move past it in Lighthouse, he was all forgive-and-forget so Sarah might've been guided by his response. Ultimately, Derek was duped. He's human, he makes mistakes. Hell, maybe Sarah should like him more, the fact that he's so flawed sets him way apart from the metal! I don't like the idea of starting over with a new Derek either. Any Derek that's all smiley and welcoming to freaky naked boy in Kyle's jacket is not a Derek that could ever replace *Derek*. ITA. Don't get me wrong, I was ecstatic to see the little bugger, but I love flawed, frakked up, devious Derek. Hating metal and bashing heads with Sarah. The writers should've had the courage to fix what they broke with him, the character deserved better. So if there was any intention of ever creating a relationship for Sarah on the show, I can only assume they were planning a nice-guy Derek or a bad-boy Kyle. Either of those would be epic fail for me, so John needs to immediately return to a point before Derek's death and prevent it. And hell, if he was going to do that, he'd probably jump back far enough to save Charley. And Michelle. There's no way to undo Jesse though... damn it Heh. Time-jumpz save everyone! They may well have been planning to switch the Reese boys around, but I can't see Kyle being a bad-boy. Not with those sideburns But I would seriously have loved to see the boys both jump back to help Sarah out. That would've been fun. And interesting. But mainly fun. I think her head would've exploded...
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Post by allergygal on Dec 7, 2009 5:01:47 GMT -5
They never did. I think Sarah loved the idea of him. A father figure for John, a stable, safe relationship for her. A job and a nice house. But Sarah's life has never been stable or safe and it was just a matter of time. I don't think the dream was anything precognitive, it was just her subconscious telling her not to get comfortable or complacent. Ultimately, Charley couldn't protect John, he didn't own a gun or have any skills - aside from his Super!Paramedic skills - that she could utilise. If the metal came knocking, he was going to be a liability as opposed to someone who could fight alongside her. Yes to all that, but I believe Sarah actually did love Charley. The way she told him she loved him felt sincere. I also got the feeling it was the first time she'd ever said it, so I'd imagine him being good for John was the original motivation for hooking up with Charley. But he was a good guy and she fell for him. I think it was easy for her to walk out the door, though, because she was so used to doing it. It wasn't until Charley was standing in front of her again that it hurt to lose him. Yeah but Ellison wasn't trying to convince him that there are robots from the future trying to kill John because he'll one day lead mankind in a fight for survival after machines have launched a nuclear apocalypse. He just told him Sarah believed all that and that she'd killed someone because of it. And Charley couldn't imagine her being such a nut. All I can figure is that in a season where Sarah was cracking, they thought it best to cut her off from everyone... No John, no Derek, no Charley. At least Kyle was there for her Seriously. One of their best moments and they're not even in the same room. Brilliant. And it gets me every single time. Well before you go too soft on Derek killing Andy, don't forget about how Sarah had to stop him from killing the cops in the tunnel under city hall, how he used a little girl as bait in the alley with Sarkissian's thug, how he was about to kill young!Fisher before Jesse killed old!Fisher, and how he was going to kill Moisha, but Jesse had already done it. The man needed redemption for sure. The trust issue was one of the great things about Sarah and Derek. Arriving without the knowledge that he was John's uncle was an immediate cue to Sarah that he couldn't be trusted completely. Lying about Andy certainly reinforced that and lying about Jesse set it in cement. I don't see John's willingness to forgive and forget as a big factor in how Sarah felt. He was just as quick to forgive and forget when Cameron tried to kill him! And I'm sure if Derek hadn't got dead, John would've thrown the Jesse thing back in his face the first time he gave him attitude, just like he did with Cameron But most of Sarah's trust issues with Derek revolved around John. So once John was out of the picture and there was no protecting to do, I think Sarah and Derek could've found some common ground. They'd already started down that path once Kyle was out in the open. It's hard for me to hate Derek's death because it was such a great moment and by then they'd long since thrown out Sarah/Derek. But I still very much wish it had all gone differently. It was a good thing they had cooking there and they burned it away. Well, they could have just been fraking with us, but the way Derek was all relaxed and Kyle walked up looking all tough, I think there was a personality swap. It was bizarro future, afterall. I know I said I'd hate good-guy!Derek or bad-boy!Kyle, but if both of them jumped back to 2009, it could be interesting. Sarah would immediately be drawn to Kyle, but she probably wouldn't be his type. And she'd hate Derek but he'd probably be totally into her. Yeah that could be fun for a while.
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Post by littleb on Dec 8, 2009 15:34:33 GMT -5
They never did. I think Sarah loved the idea of him. A father figure for John, a stable, safe relationship for her. A job and a nice house. But Sarah's life has never been stable or safe and it was just a matter of time. Yes to all that, but I believe Sarah actually did love Charley. The way she told him she loved him felt sincere. I also got the feeling it was the first time she'd ever said it, so I'd imagine him being good for John was the original motivation for hooking up with Charley. But he was a good guy and she fell for him. True. You get the sense that the only guys Sarah hooked up with in the past were the ones she could use for something. Actually, there's more than a sense about that, it's canon! So, for her to stick with Charley - someone with no really useful skills, weapons, or hiding place in the middle of nowhere - there must have been something genuine between them. It was more the speed of her ditching him that made me question how much she loved him, but then John comes first, even if it means her running from someone she loves. And she is torn up about him for most of S1... so yeah, I'll give her that, she did love Charley I dunno. He thought Ellison was nuts when he was in the police station after her disappearance, Yeah but Ellison wasn't trying to convince him that there are robots from the future trying to kill John because he'll one day lead mankind in a fight for survival after machines have launched a nuclear apocalypse. He just told him Sarah believed all that and that she'd killed someone because of it. And Charley couldn't imagine her being such a nut. I guess he only really got the idea when he saw Cameron slicing and flaying the T-888. And then he didn't really know what to do with the knowledge, he was all "just go to the cops, they'll protect you." Hmm, yeah, cos Terminators never rampage through police stations! So, Charley was a liability and Sarah was right to leave him high and dry. And his CPR was crap... All I can figure is that in a season where Sarah was cracking, they thought it best to cut her off from everyone... No John, no Derek, no Charley. At least Kyle was there for her Talk about kicking a girl when she's down. Much love for the use of Kyle though. I had no idea - when we saw the spoilers - how they were going to write him in without it being silly but they managed it beautifully. Having him essentially keeping Sarah from tipping over the verge into the Crazy was awesome. Every time she was about to go just that bit too far, he reeled her in and calmed her down. It also worked seamlessly with the original dialogue they wrote in. Kyle saved her life again, and he didn't even need to be alive to do it. He never got a shot at redemption, did he? Messes up, takes a bullet whilst making (for a seasoned soldier) a really stupid tactical move. Well before you go too soft on Derek killing Andy, don't forget about how Sarah had to stop him from killing the cops in the tunnel under city hall, how he used a little girl as bait in the alley with Sarkissian's thug, how he was about to kill young!Fisher before Jesse killed old!Fisher, and how he was going to kill Moisha, but Jesse had already done it. The man needed redemption for sure. He did. I can cut him some slack for Andy though. I never really got the best friend vibe from them both, but his speech to Jesse in TTDII gave that whole messy little incident a new depth. Derek's undisciplined, acts without thinking the consequences through, and he's kinda amoral when it comes to people standing in his way. I think a lot of that was him being isolated and acting on his own - there are a lot of hints in the show that he was an order follower, not someone used to using initiative. He's accustomed to fighting for survival, and he doesn't seem to have the same hang-ups as Sarah when it comes to offing those in the way. I guess he's not so bothered about the spend a life to save the lives of many kinda connundrum. Hell, maybe it's a lack of parental influence. See? Really? It's not his fault at all The trust issue was one of the great things about Sarah and Derek. Arriving without the knowledge that he was John's uncle was an immediate cue to Sarah that he couldn't be trusted completely. Good point. But then, Future!John probably never dreamed that Derek would actually encounter his mother so why tell him? There's a definite discrepancy in the how well Derek knew Future!John stakes. He claims they celebrated John's birthday together and yet, in the flashbacks they seem not to really know each other at all. Weird continuity for sure. Lying about Andy certainly reinforced that and lying about Jesse set it in cement. I don't see John's willingness to forgive and forget as a big factor in how Sarah felt. Heh. It obviously wasn't a factor cos she took John to the lighthouse straight after he'd said it! She was definitely all for cutting Derek out of the team, but she does respect her son and - if Derek hadn't gone and gotten all dead - the fact that John called Cam and Derek back might have been something Sarah forced herself to learn to live with. He was just as quick to forgive and forget when Cameron tried to kill him! And I'm sure if Derek hadn't got dead, John would've thrown the Jesse thing back in his face the first time he gave him attitude, just like he did with Cameron LOL yeah, trust the leader of the new world to act like a little bitch when it suits! But most of Sarah's trust issues with Derek revolved around John. So once John was out of the picture and there was no protecting to do, I think Sarah and Derek could've found some common ground. They'd already started down that path once Kyle was out in the open. I think the common ground was definitely there, if they'd stopped butting heads for long enough they could have made a really good team. Although, the butting heads was fun too. And Derek did seem pretty put-out at the cemetery, he would have been all for making amends had it not been for that bullet. Hmm, that I would love to have seen, Derek trying to fix what he'd frakked up... It's hard for me to hate Derek's death because it was such a great moment and by then they'd long since thrown out Sarah/Derek. But I still very much wish it had all gone differently. It was a good thing they had cooking there and they burned it away. True. Don't get me wrong, I loved his death just as much as I hated the idea of it. It was an audacious bit of plotting, but the more I think on it, the easier a way out it seems. "We all die for you..." I guess giving him a heroic death wouldn't have been as hard-hitting and unexpected, but I do think the little bastard deserved better. They may well have been planning to switch the Reese boys around, but I can't see Kyle being a bad-boy... I know I said I'd hate good-guy!Derek or bad-boy!Kyle, but if both of them jumped back to 2009, it could be interesting. Sarah would immediately be drawn to Kyle, but she probably wouldn't be his type. And she'd hate Derek but he'd probably be totally into her. Yeah that could be fun for a while. Oh totally. If they switched them around, then would that make Sarah Derek's "type" in lieu of Kyle? Ahh, the possibilities! Hell, leave John in the future chasing his Robo!Chicklet and just make me a show where Sarah tries to save the world with the aid of the Reese boys. I would totally, totally buy that DVD!
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Post by allergygal on Jan 24, 2010 4:23:48 GMT -5
I think the common ground was definitely there, if they'd stopped butting heads for long enough they could have made a really good team. Although, the butting heads was fun too. And Derek did seem pretty put-out at the cemetery, he would have been all for making amends had it not been for that bullet. Hmm, that I would love to have seen, Derek trying to fix what he'd frakked up... He did look a bit punched in the gut when Sarah said "John counts for more," but I really can't imagine a penitent Derek. Anyway, he and Sarah getting along all the time would have grown dull. But I think if they could've maintained equal parts Demon Hand, Vicks' Chip, What he Beheld and Good Wound, I could've been quite happy.
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Post by littleb on Jan 25, 2010 6:44:14 GMT -5
And Derek did seem pretty put-out at the cemetery, he would have been all for making amends had it not been for that bullet. Hmm, that I would love to have seen, Derek trying to fix what he'd frakked up... did look a bit punched in the gut when Sarah said "John counts for more," but I really can't imagine a penitent Derek. Anyway, he and Sarah getting along all the time would have grown dull. But I think if they could've maintained equal parts Demon Hand, Vicks' Chip, What he Beheld and Good Wound, I could've been quite happy. Damn straight. They had the balance right at the start; butting heads but mutual respect right alongside the mutual niggles. I'm not sure Sarah ever really trusted him (although she must've to a large extent because she let him stay in the house and be around John) and she certainly didn't like his ethos or his methods. Meanwhile, Derek was more inclined to take the slightly less moral route and was probably frustrated by Sarah not pushing as hard as he wanted to to try and get things done. I think the main difference between the two was Sarah was trying to stop J-Day, but her son was her priority. Derek was trying to stop it because he'd lived through it and that put the desperation and the willingness to cut moral corners into his methods. He could walk through the food court and see where the Skynet prison camps were. They were both fighting for the same thing, but for slightly different reasons.
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schmacky
Major
"Make yourself useful."
Posts: 522
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Post by schmacky on Jan 26, 2010 0:43:57 GMT -5
Derek had an urgency in his actions to try and stop J-Day. Not that Sarah didn't, but like you said, he lived through it and that is why he cut those corners. And I think that's why (at least for me) the viewer accepted Derek's amoral methods because his motivation for doing so was so clear. It's not that he was just some blood thirsty horrible man, it's that he was urgent and desperate in his need to stop J-Day.
*sigh* Why did S2 mess up all the great things of S1? *sniff*
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