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Post by allergygal on Mar 8, 2008 14:25:44 GMT -5
I do want John to be strong, brave, leading, forceful and determined now- I want him to be more impressive now than in T2 - I feel like he's regressed (in the early eps), gone backwards, and that's not a good thing. He was originally 12/13 when J-Day occurred, and I can't forget that, either. He was capable and ready and strong in T2, and I don't like the idea that he becomes less of a man or less of a hero as time goes by. We are getting some of that now, from John, and that's great, but it's needs to be consistent. No more "I can't" - I've been pretty happy in that regard for the past few eps, but I have residual Smallville-bitterness. For me it's a defining characteristic that when the rest of the world said "we can't" about fighting back, he was one that said "we can." Before Cromartie showed up, there was nothing at stake so his issues were perfectly fine. But he's been trained all his life so that he would step up when the time came, and I think the time is now. More than that, the war is now (the opening credits say so), so he should be leading and stepping up now. I don't want to watch and entire series of him not being capable and ready and not leading just he can step up and do in the last four eps and basically never need the skills again. Sarah has been preparing him and training him his entire life for the war against Skynet. This is the war against Skynet. This is what she's been preparing him for. I'd like to think it paid off. Until judgement day, the war against Skynet is about prevention -- stopping Skynet from coming into being, not leading an army of men against it. So that's why I like how the show is taking a slower progression with John in terms of leadership, focusing more on his computer skills at the moment. Right now those are the skills most valuable and for a 16-year-old kid, it's also more realistic. We've never been told the future!John was a teenage leader of mankind. In fact, everything we know about his future indicates that he's a grown man who's imprisoned in a Skynet work camp before he really organizes the resistance. He has the training, has the background, and we see evidence of that. But actually being a great leader is something that will come about out of necessity, not choice. Just think of the difference in how Sarah treats him from the pilot to the finale. In the pilot John wanted to stay and she basically grabbed him by the collar and told him to pack a bag. In Heavy Metal she was ready to run, but went against her own judgement and agreed to go after Cromartie. She's still the mom, still the one with more experience who makes the decisions, but she doesn't just order him around like a little kid anymore. In the finale, when John wanted to stay despite the danger from Sarakissian, she didn't just tell him to shut up and pack, she said she was sorry that they had to leave. He's a good persuader, but if he were ordering Sarah and Derek around it would just be unrealistic. Yeah I'm with you on this. I don't like that Sarah and John knowingly have killers living with them. Sarah's "no one dies until I say so" was the only attempt, as I recall, to get Cameron to not kill people. And clearly that didn't work. I'm sure John doesn't know about Cameron killing Enrique, but he certainly knows about her killing fake!Sarkissian's thug and it didn't seem to bother him (or Sarah much either). The writers need to work on that because valuing human life was such an important aspect of T2. Cameron being a machine gives her a little more of a pass than Derek, though, because no matter how they might try to "teach" her not to kill, they know she doesn't take orders from them. And they need Cameron, especially with Cromartie around. Derek, on the other hand, has demonstrated over and over that violence is always his plan A. And since that goes directly against Sarah and John's way of thinking, it's a problem that needs to be addressed. The fact that they're letting him continue like that is frustrating to me because I just don't believe Sarah and John would accept it. I'm hoping this will be a major issue early in season 2.
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shmi
Refugee
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Post by shmi on Mar 8, 2008 14:48:42 GMT -5
He was originally 12/13 when J-Day occurred, and I can't forget that, either. He was capable and ready and strong in T2, and I don't like the idea that he becomes less of a man or less of a hero as time goes by. I know what you mean. He was capable of leading then. Assumably he is capable of it now. So I want to see him doing it now. Otherwise it feels like he's moving backwards. That's why I loved him in "Heavy Metal." I also the Dyson house scene we great preview of General John Conner there.
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Post by tzigone on Mar 8, 2008 14:59:54 GMT -5
This is a proxy war - there never will be a post J-Day war (I hope, I'll be ticked if they don't stop J-Day). So this is the only opportunity we have to see him lead. It's now or never. He's supposed to be the one that saves humanity against Skynet - this Skynet coming after humanity. IMO, this is the same war as he leads in - it's just a different battlefield. For me, this is it. I don't car as much about realistic. Realism is secondary to consistency. To being in character with previous depiction. I saw what he was in T2, and I certainly felt like he was less in the first eps of SCC - and that is a huge problem for me. I also the Dyson house scene we great preview of General John Conner there. Oh, definitely. It's one of those scenes that showed me who and what he is. Why he's the one and no one else (not even Sarah) - why he should be the one leading, making the decisions. He's the one who's strength doesn't falter, even when hers does.* Not the other way around. I loved how he condemned the idea of murdering Miles Dyson. I loved what he said and what it said about him - about how he values life and what methods are never acceptable. And it didn't matter that it Mom doing it - it was still wrong and he still couldn't let it happen. Then once he got there, he was magnificent. He completely took charge. He checked on his mom, had Uncle Bob take care of Dyson, John made the decision to tell Dyson about the future, and he got Danny out of the room so he wouldn't be further traumatized. And then later, after Sarah was back to herself, it was John who cut in and stopped her griping at Dyson and put the focus back where it belonged - on finding a solution. That is what made me love John Connor, and that is what I want to see more of. I saw that he was capable and willing then - so he should be now, too. *There's a difference between faltering and feeling overwhelmed. Feeling overwhelmed doesn't keep you from doing what you need to do, and keeping your morals while you do so.
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shmi
Refugee
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Post by shmi on Mar 8, 2008 15:23:35 GMT -5
That is what made me love John Connor, and that is what I want to see more of. I'm with you 100%. That is the scene that made me love John Connor. T2 left me with the impression that, even if J-Day never came, John Connor would be great, that he would make a favorable difference in the world no matter what. The only question is how he would make that differemce.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 8, 2008 16:53:17 GMT -5
This is a proxy war - there never will be a post J-Day war (I hope, I'll be ticked if they don't stop J-Day). So this is the only opportunity we have to see him lead. It's now or never. He's supposed to be the one that saves humanity against Skynet - this Skynet coming after humanity. IMO, this is the same war as he leads in - it's just a different battlefield. For me, this is it. And he is showing leadership on a technological front. He's the one that came up with the plan to insert a virus into the ARTIE system. He's the one that developed the virus. He's the one that hacked into Vick's chip. He's the one that removed Cameron's chip and inserted it into the traffic system. What I was trying to say is that I don't buy him as a 16-year old military commander -- a guy who can lead an army of men in war, which is how I think we've always been led to believe his future role would be. But in this type of battle (the "proxy" war), he does take charge. And I find that much more believable for John Connor at this point in his life.
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Post by tzigone on Mar 8, 2008 18:51:23 GMT -5
I do not consider leadership in any sense. That is specialized knowledge. It's like the engineer on Star Trek knowing how to save the ship - it doesn't make them the leader, it just means they have specialized knowledge in this area. It's like Geordie coming up with the plan to infect the Borg - it's not leadership. John needs to be a lot more than "the tech guy." Leadership requires leading people.
Leadership is more like in "Heavy Metal" when he talked about the enemy being vulnerable and striking a blow now and that sort of thing. I loved John in "Heavy Metal." I want to see more of that. His computer skills were minor and not relevant to what made him strong. Well, I should say those are the qualities that make him suited to leadership - no one is actually following him there (even though I think they should have been because he's right).
And I do think he has to lead an army into war. A small army. Right now it's his mom, his uncle, and a Terminator. I expect a few more along the way. Not a lot, though. But he has to be the leader, the one to make the decisions. The one people look to.
I need to see him lead people. To make the decisions. For faces to turn to him in times of turmoil.
I really do feel like his mad computer skills could very conceivably be used as a crutch for the writers. For them not to show him physically fight, not to show him with a weapon, fighting like Sarah and Derek. To keep him off the front lines - and I want him on the front lines. HM helped me in that regard some - Cameron says he takes those risks. What I saw him do in HM, how I saw him act, how he refused to back down and run when Cromartie turned out to be alive, how he defied Sarah to try track them, how he was relatively cool under fire when trapped, and how he refused to scrap the mission and run for safety when Sarah said so. That I loved. And I want to see that type of behavior (in particular with him out in the field, taking the risks) at least every third event.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 12, 2008 1:09:30 GMT -5
John's still too impulsive. He can't just rush into things. In order to fight Skynet he has to have foresight. He has to have vision. Skynet is not limited by human weaknesses and it doesn't have to think like humans. Skynet could easily plan for years and decades in advance. John has to know when to take risk and when not to take risk.
Getting rid of the Coltan in "Heavy Metal" may not have been the best choice. It might have actually been better to keep the Coltan so that the Resistance can use it in the future. It's not enough to hurt Skynet, they have to think about ways to help the Resistance.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 12, 2008 1:13:56 GMT -5
Getting rid of the Coltan in "Heavy Metal" may not have been the best choice. It might have actually been better to keep the Coltan so that the Resistance can use it in the future. It's not enough to hurt Skynet, they have to think about ways to help the Resistance. Ah, but they didn't actually get rid of the coltan. I'm sure it's perfectly retrievable from its watery grave. And John knows where that is. Skynet doesn't.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 12, 2008 1:58:49 GMT -5
It won't be easy to retrieve it. I doubt the Resistance has access to diving gear. There's also a good chance that it would be washed away by the tide after all that time.
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Post by ReeseDN38416 on Mar 12, 2008 22:25:03 GMT -5
If Cameron were evil... it would be relatively easy for the machines to retrieve the metal.
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Post by Ronnie on Mar 13, 2008 12:06:26 GMT -5
Derek told John that he celebrated his 30th Birthday with him, and that he got 'Drunk as a skunk'.
What do you think about this, assuming that it was true?
My immediate response was that John wouldn't party like that and leave his guard down even for a night, and that it might have been made up by Derek.
On the other hand, Sarah did say that celebrating is 'who we are', and that fighting the machines is merely a 'Mission'.
Perhaps he took to his mother's advice about holding on to some bit of his humanity?
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Post by allergygal on Mar 13, 2008 12:40:36 GMT -5
In 2027, we certainly don't get the impression that Derek and John are close friends. But that was also 5-13 years later than John's 30th birthday (depending on whether or not that was a 2027 where John had time jumped 8 years from 1999 to 2007). So it's entirely possible they were good friends at the time John turned 30 and something changed to make John become more reclusive. So I really think they could go either way with it... that Derek is lying about celebrating his birthday with him or that Derek is telling the truth about it.
I don't find it unbelievable that John might take a night to celebrate his birthday and end up getting drunk in the process. Even soldiers in the middle of a war need to escape sometimes.
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Post by Ronnie on Mar 13, 2008 12:45:43 GMT -5
What if the whole obsession with changing the Past is what caused John to enter an obsessed, reclusive state?
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Post by vicheron on Mar 13, 2008 14:37:12 GMT -5
Morale is very important in a war. It could make or break an army. Low morale is probably one of the biggest problems the Resistance faces especially considering that soldiers are going to be fighting all the time. Even during our worst wars, soldiers get a reprieve from the front lines once in a while. I doubt that the Resistance has such a luxury. Since John Connor is such a legendary figure among the Resistance he could do a lot to relieve tedium and increase morale by having some fun with his soldiers.
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rossbondreturns
Corporal
Summer 08 Wallpaper Challenge Winner!
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Post by rossbondreturns on Mar 13, 2008 14:59:45 GMT -5
I think John Connor is doing fine at the moment.
I suspect in Season 2...I'm quite certain now that it will most likely happen- that we will see his leadership come to the forefront.
And although I wish it were posssible for J-Day to be stopped according my conversations with J.C. it is almost infinitely more likely that J-Day will occour. Since in both His, My and Josh's opinion J-Day is a key part to the whole termiantor mythos and pretty much out of necessity has to happen.
In fact if they Blink and stop J-Day...I will be one very unhappy Terminator Fan.
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