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Post by Derek Reese on Sept 29, 2008 15:51:57 GMT -5
I'm with Traitors on this one. It's not like he's in prison. He's free to make his own choices in the long run and he's a teenager. The character isn't a perfect machine, that goes about his life everyday under cloak and dagger though he's out there having some sense of a life with his family and a girlfriend. He's still fighting and making his own choices and yes, frankly he's going to screw up. We all did it at point or another as a teenager. Even Sarah and Derek's own teaching isn't going to change that factor.
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Post by Deep Art Frummy on Sept 29, 2008 16:54:47 GMT -5
I'd like to see the writers introduce a variety of training methods for John as the season/series goes on. I think that would give people more of an understanding to John's character. I know they will have him at a rifle range and what not, but they need to have more than just that. I'm really hoping they don't classify that as "training" and then pretend like he's already some BA.
I'd like to see him learn some hand to hand combat techniques, maybe even some styles of martial arts. I'd even like to see some mental training to help his decision making.
I think that would also add more scenarios and ideas for the show as well and John's character as a whole.
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traitorsgate
Sergeant
This is Cam. She's trained for an Off-World kick murder squad. Talk about Beauty and the Beast.
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Post by traitorsgate on Sept 29, 2008 18:04:00 GMT -5
I'd be more interested in seeing how he starts to set up, and coordinate a human resistance. At the moment the Connor clan is little different to any other bunch of piss ant survivalist group running around America clutching their copies of Soldier Of Fortune magazine. Showing John Connor running around shooting stuff is a bit of a misnomer as that doesn't necessarily make him a leader. In fact it would be more realistic to see him start to forge ties with people either still in the military or with previous military experience. It would be these soldiers in their capacity as trained 'Shooters' that would be doing the leg work. Connors role as a leader would be one of coordinating these assets to best effect.
Frankly no amount of having John Connor down at the range is ever going to get him up to the level of an experienced soldier. In fact if for the sake of dramatic effect (hey it's TV after all), you start bringing in Spec-Ops soldiers as future allies then these guys are operating at a level that takes years to attain. John Connor could never realistically be expected to match these guys. However you would expect him to know how to best use their experience.
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Post by Derek Reese on Sept 29, 2008 18:15:43 GMT -5
Considering Derek himself has been in the battlefield and fought against the machines, it's a step in the process and learning from someone who has been there is a step in the development department regardless of how its taken. As long as John's learning the fundamentals, he's learning the fundamentals. At some point, he's going to have to step up to the plate and use them in the field to really work to what must be done. Something I'm counting on seeing in regards to the progression of the series.
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Post by vicheron on Sept 29, 2008 21:46:57 GMT -5
According to T2, Sarah hung around with a lot of people who taught her and John how to fight. Sarah is smart, she definitely would have tried to get with guys in the Navy Seals, Green Berets, Delta Force, even CIA and SSB. However, special forces probably won't be nearly as effective against Skynet. It won't exactly be easy to infiltrate the machines. Terminators have no morale that can be suppressed. Even though Skynet uses terrorist tactics, its army is not structured like a terrorist organization.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Sept 30, 2008 6:10:36 GMT -5
I would agree that it isn't important for Connor to know all the techniques a SpecWar guy knows. What he needs to know is that THEY know it and how to use that. The guys running the Pentagon don't know how to do SpecWar techniques themselves - they know the guys who do know them and they know the techniques and how they can be applied tactically and strategically. (Or at least they think they do - quite frankly, they don't know squat about counterinsurgency any more, as Iraq and Afghanistan have demonstrated - not to get political here.)
Also we can't be sure that any of the current techniques are going to be useful against Terminators. The higher level strategic concepts of war will always be useful. but it's a bad idea to "train to fight the last war."
And that's the key to John Connor: 1) he can go beyond all that with imagination and determination and lack of fear, and 2) he can invent new methods and adapt quickly and effectively to whatever tactics or technologies Skynet develops.
That's why his attitude and behavior toward the Caminator are so important. As James Middleton said, he has "embraced the enemy." And that's a high level strategic decision that can pay off big time in war.
It's also why his being a hacker in present time is so important - it demonstrates his ability to learn new technologies quickly and adapt them to his strategic and tactical needs. Dude whips up a virus to take down ARTIE in twenty minutes (except, of course, it didn't work!) ;D So then he immediately figures out to use the Caminator - five minutes after Vic takes over his laptop, he's figured out how to use her! That's our boy!
He just needs to take that to the next level - strategy. We know he does because that's why we're doing all this time war stuff. He finds out Skynet has invented time travel, he immediately sends out his guys to find the time machine and duplicate it. Then he starts sending guys back to combat everything Skynet might be doing.
All this while he's fighting Skynet troops on the battlefield in the future.
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Post by allergygal on Oct 29, 2008 18:11:01 GMT -5
There always seems to be a lot of grumbling about John. Last season many thought he was too emo/whiny and this season he's obviously going through some issues. But I think probably the longest-running complaint about him is that he's not acting like John Connor. I never really get that. No, he's not acting like a grown man in the middle of a war to save the human race from being annihilated by machines. But that's because he's not a grown man and he's not in that situation. He isn't that leader yet. He's still a teenager and judgement day hasn't happened. I have a feeling when John finally gets over his current state of misery, we'll see something new in him — maybe a clearer sense that there is a motivator and a leader inside him (and hopefully a sense of humor too). But even if that doesn't happen for a long time, I don't think it's really fair to compare him to our perceptions of what his future self is going to be. Who and what John Connor turns out to be is part of the journey of the show.
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Post by vicheron on Oct 29, 2008 21:52:11 GMT -5
John needs to get over himself. A lot of people have already died for him and many people, including Sarah, are sacrificing everything they have so that John may live and grow up to be the leader he needs to be. That's the problem many people have with John's development. He has yet to prove that he is worth all that sacrifice. If he doesn't grow up then people are going to think that Kyle Reese died in vain and Sarah gave up her entire life for nothing.
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on Oct 29, 2008 22:06:54 GMT -5
ITA Vicheron. But I also agree with AG - 16 isn't the point at which you get over yourself. You're only just beginning to find out who you are at 16 and I think most people would agree when I say that no one should be held responsible for the things they do before they're 18 - and I'm not talking about the criminal justice system, I'm talking about that really stupid thing you said at that party one time - Socrates believed that wisdom begins when you admit what you don't know - and no one has that kind of insight at 16.
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Post by vicheron on Oct 29, 2008 22:16:40 GMT -5
Humans will no longer have that luxury after Judgment Day. Also, remember, originally Judgment Day was supposed to take place in 1997, which means that John would only be 13 years old.
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on Oct 29, 2008 22:28:07 GMT -5
True but since Judgement Day didn't happen in 1997, those rules don't apply.
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Post by allergygal on Oct 29, 2008 23:58:20 GMT -5
John needs to get over himself. A lot of people have already died for him and many people, including Sarah, are sacrificing everything they have so that John may live and grow up to be the leader he needs to be. That's the problem many people have with John's development. He has yet to prove that he is worth all that sacrifice. If he doesn't grow up then people are going to think that Kyle Reese died in vain and Sarah gave up her entire life for nothing. I don't think Sarah's thinking Kyle died for nothing or that she's been sacrificing her life for John in vain because he's a troubled teen. It's not like the moment came where the human race was on the verge of extinction and John sat there listening to his ipod because he didn't feel like helping. In the current timeline, he probably doesn't get the resistance going until 2021, when he's like 30 years old. Judgement day happens in 2011, he gets captured and imprisoned along with Kyle in 2015 and breaks out in 2021. I'm pretty sure he'll be a different person in 14 years. Getting older kind of has a way of making people grow up.
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Post by vicheron on Oct 30, 2008 0:05:21 GMT -5
But John has received somewhat of a reprieve and he has not used that time very wisely. In the end, it may be his undoing. In the original timeline, John lives in the post Judgment Day world from age 13 in 1997 to at least age 45 in 2029, this John will only be living in the post Judgment Day world from 2011 to 2027.
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Post by allergygal on Oct 30, 2008 2:19:29 GMT -5
True, he did get a reprieve. If we backtrack to the T2 timeline, judgement day was going to happen in 1997, when John would have been, what, 15? But even with that scenario, I never expected he'd be rise to great leadership until much later. In those first few years after the bombs hit, I'm sure it's just humans (including John Connor) scrambling for survival - figuring out how to provide for their basic needs. People are going to be scattered, there's going to fear, confusion, hostility over food, clothing and shelter. Even John Connor can't be prepared enough for that reality to spring right into action, no matter what age he is when it starts.
Why do you have the timeline capped at 2027? We don't have any evidence that the war ends in 2027 do we?
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Post by vicheron on Oct 30, 2008 4:01:17 GMT -5
But the T2 John has more time to adapt to the post Judgment Day world. The problem with this John is that he won't have the same experience as the T2 John of the same age. Age 19 T2 John will already have had to live 5 to 6 years in the post Judgment Day world while Judgment Day won't even happen until this John reaches age 19.
They obviously haven't defeated Skynet in 2027 and that's the biggest difference between this timeline and the original timeline. In the original timeline, Skynet was defeated or was close to defeat when the time displacement device was built. In this timeline, the outcome of the war is still undecided. If the war does drag on for 32 years like the war in the original timeline then Skynet won't be defeated until 2043, it will have far superior technology by then so it might not even be defeated. John will be 6 years older, and he'll probably be considered an old man by post Judgment Day standards. John's relative inexperience and Skynet's improved technological advancement in this timeline could prove to be a fatal combination for the human race.
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