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Post by Ronnie on Mar 13, 2008 16:31:30 GMT -5
I would like to see John and Cameron become a Team on missions seperate from Derek/Sarah.
Perhaps John riding a motorcycle, with Cameron in the sidecar with little goggles ;D
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Post by tzigone on Mar 13, 2008 18:03:21 GMT -5
John's still too impulsive. He can't just rush into things. In order to fight Skynet he has to have foresight. He has to have vision. Skynet is not limited by human weaknesses and it doesn't have to think like humans. Skynet could easily plan for years and decades in advance. John has to know when to take risk and when not to take risk. Yeah, and I think "Heavy Metal" was the perfect time to take the risk: when are the odds ever going to be better? It's always going to be an "impossible" battle. I thought he was great in "Heavy Metal" - he knew the risk, he had a plan (that wasn't that risky in relative terms), he was able to improvise after that plan got shot to heck, and he didn't give up on the mission after things didn't go according to plan.
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shmi
Refugee
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Post by shmi on Mar 13, 2008 18:24:25 GMT -5
I find it very relevant that Cameron said future John does this kind of thing all the time. It sounds to me like this kind of action is a major part of what is beating Skynet.
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Post by tzigone on Mar 13, 2008 18:28:27 GMT -5
I find it very relevant that Cameron said future John does this kind of thing all the time. It sounds to me like this kind of action is a major part of what is beating Skynet. Exactly. That right there is a message to the audience that this is the right thing to be doing, the right way to fight Skynet. Now, maybe John's plan wasn't perfect. Few plans are. But it was still a far sight better than the only other suggestion: run away and do nothing.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 13, 2008 21:13:10 GMT -5
John's still too impulsive. He can't just rush into things. In order to fight Skynet he has to have foresight. He has to have vision. Skynet is not limited by human weaknesses and it doesn't have to think like humans. Skynet could easily plan for years and decades in advance. John has to know when to take risk and when not to take risk. Yeah, and I think "Heavy Metal" was the perfect time to take the risk: when are the odds ever going to be better? It's always going to be an "impossible" battle. I thought he was great in "Heavy Metal" - he knew the risk, he had a plan (that wasn't that risky in relative terms), he was able to improvise after that plan got shot to heck, and he didn't give up on the mission after things didn't go according to plan. "Heavy Metal" was not a good time to take the risk. The T-888 was stockpiling coltan for a factory that wasn't going to be built for at least another 5 or 10 years. They weren't prepared to fight the T-888. They should have just followed it to find where it was going to store the coltan and then spent some time coming up with a plan. They have plenty of time to think up of something that could both hurt Skynet and help the Resistance.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 13, 2008 21:54:57 GMT -5
"Heavy Metal" was not a good time to take the risk. The T-888 was stockpiling coltan for a factory that wasn't going to be built for at least another 5 or 10 years. They weren't prepared to fight the T-888. They should have just followed it to find where it was going to store the coltan and then spent some time coming up with a plan. They have plenty of time to think up of something that could both hurt Skynet and help the Resistance. I'm with you on that. I thought it was an impulsive and ill-conceived plan that worked out mostly by chance. Like Sarah said: "That thing has real estate, it has employees. We don't know how many of them are in there." And Cameron couldn't even beat one terminator, let alone a few at once if there had been more. In John's defense, though, none of them knew the factory wasn't already being built someplace, so tracking the truck wasn't a bad idea. John just picked a bad way to do it.
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Post by Derek Reese on Mar 14, 2008 0:32:30 GMT -5
And to top that he isn't going to fully know the risks involved with all the T-888's. Cameron's got a limited knowledge (or at least appears to at present) that he can use, but it seems like she's the only one that can take down the T-888s.
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Post by tzigone on Mar 17, 2008 18:29:04 GMT -5
"Heavy Metal" was not a good time to take the risk. The T-888 was stockpiling coltan for a factory that wasn't going to be built for at least another 5 or 10 years. They weren't prepared to fight the T-888. They should have just followed it to find where it was going to store the coltan and then spent some time coming up with a plan. They have plenty of time to think up of something that could both hurt Skynet and help the Resistance. Except Sarah didn't want to follow it. She wanted to go home and do nothing. It was John who wanted to follow it. By placing a phone there and tracking it online. The plan just went awry. But he kept his head, and didn't give up - three cheers from me. Yes, blowing it up was his first option. But then John presented the tracking it plan. No, they weren't prepared to fight a T-888 - and they never will be. The weapons to fight them do not exist. Will not exist, until after 2011. It was one Terminator and indeterminate number of humans (4, I think, though they didn't know that for sure) v. 1 Terminator and two humans. Those are just about the best odds they are ever going to get.Once they knew where the coltan was, getting it was best, instead of just running to escape. Dangerous yes, but this is going to dangerous. Once it's locked inside and they are outside, they have no way to get to it, and no way to stop Skynet from getting to it. Well, except stopping Skynet from ever existing, but better not to just assume their own victory. An interesting point to me here: Sarah says "if you die, they win" and my very first thought is "if he doesn't fight, they win" - it is because of what he is, what he does, that humans win. You ever listen to Kyle in T1 when he talks about the future? It always sounds to me like no one ever fought back before John Connor. It was impossible to win. But John Connor fought and taught others to fight. And won. And the odds are much, much worse in the future than they are now. "Heavy Metal" is, to me, is one of the easiest battles they'll ever face. The odds were more in their favor than they could ever have expected. If they aren't willing to fight against these odds, then humanity doesn't stand much of a chance.
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shmi
Refugee
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Post by shmi on Mar 17, 2008 18:32:21 GMT -5
Too true. Both Sarah and Cameron wanted to give up without trying.
I'm left with the same impression.
We're on the same page here. I was immediately asking myself "When will the odds ever be better?"
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Post by vicheron on Mar 17, 2008 19:16:20 GMT -5
There are plenty of weapons that can destroy Terminators. Remember, the Terminator in the first movie got blown in half by a homemade pipe bomb. They just need to stop relying on shotguns and sidearms. They just need to get some armor piercing bullets to deal with Terminators.
They weren't prepared to fight a fully functional T-888. They were expecting to find a damaged T-888 and they had a plan to take it down. Once they saw that the T-888 wasn't Cromartie, they should have just tracked it and came up with a new plan.
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roseredscare
Private
Castiel, your local kickass angel
Posts: 120
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Post by roseredscare on Mar 18, 2008 14:18:59 GMT -5
What they need is a grenade launcher. Those seem to do the job but they're highly illegal for civilians so it's understandable why they don't carry one around. With the amount of Terminator kills on Derek's uniform he must know a thing or two of how to take one down in a tight spot so why Sarah isn't trying to pump him for future information is anyone's guess.
Anyway, I thought John's plan was fine in Heavy Metal. He wanted to track the shipment so they could do something about it. He might have gotten out of that ruck in time too if Sarah and Cameron hadn't have wasted time telling him they were going to do nothing.
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Post by aceplace57 on Sept 18, 2008 16:08:20 GMT -5
I wish John was cool like he was in T2. T2 came out when I was in high school. John rode a motorcycle, listened to good music, excellent arcade game player, he hacked ATM's. There was this attitude about John.T2 John had a swagger and he was a cocky little bast*rd too. He got right up in Uncle Bob's face several times. I miss that guy. Heck he even tried to make Uncle Bob cool.
TSCC John is.... flat?? uninteresting?? I'm not sure what's missing. But he wouldn't grab my imagination if I was 15 now. I don't see much in him now that grabs a younger audience. That's kind of funny because John Connor is 16 ;-) I understand he's been through a lot and he's feeling pressure to become a leader. I think the audience wants to see glimpses of the cocky, self-assured rebel. Nearly every leader has those qualities. How can you lead without the belief that you have the answers?
Adding Riley opens up an opportunity to make John come out of his shell. Maybe they could have a few cool moments like he was in T2.
Here are a few suggestions that could be used once in awhile. 1. When Riley and John are in the bedroom play some current music 2. Get a Sony Playstation for the bedroom let John/Riley use it 3. John needs a motorcycle to take Riley around town. 4. Let the kid rebel a little. Sneak out at night to met Riley. Hang out at the Arcade or other teen places.
Yes, 90% of the time John has to fight Skynet and deal with his future responsibility. But once in awhile let him unwind, be a kid, do some silly harmless shit. It'll make John more real and much more interesting.
There's a reason T2 was such a huge smash hit. The movie connected with teen audiences and adults too. TSCC needs to connect with the teen audiences. Otherwise it's not going to get ratings and stay on the air.
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k8ie
Corporal
Posts: 1,482
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Post by k8ie on Sept 18, 2008 16:18:40 GMT -5
So basically you want John in TSCC to be a carbon copy of the character in T2?
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Post by Deep Art Frummy on Sept 18, 2008 16:23:00 GMT -5
I think Dekker's version of John Connor is perfectly fine. True, there are moments when he's dull, but he has stated that he gets more and more aggresive as the season goes on.
One thing I do agree with, he listened to better music in T2. Come on, how do you go from rockin' a Public Enemy t-shirt to listening to the incredible crappy music of Incubus in the pilot? John isn't Nu. Put some death metal in the boy's speakers.
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Post by aceplace57 on Sept 18, 2008 16:26:17 GMT -5
Not a carbon copy. He's older and more mature. When he's with Derek or Cameron he'd naturally be more focused and serious.
We never see John relax. Soldiers have to relax once in awhile. That's when we could occasionally see the T2 John emerge.
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