schmacky
Major
"Make yourself useful."
Posts: 522
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Post by schmacky on Feb 16, 2009 17:15:18 GMT -5
I fear, that the writers make a crazy robot out of her - crazy by a damaged chip. But I think, it would be much deeper and more interesting if all her actions are caused by some hidden agenda and if she takes her free will to make her own decisions. In S2 Weaver is now already more mystherious than Cameron. Maybe the damage to her chip is what enables her to have free will?
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Post by hzhp800 on Feb 17, 2009 1:24:35 GMT -5
Many people seem to suggest that only Cameron and skynet have "free-will" whatever that means. (I'll define it as having more or less the same amount of agency as generally experienced by human beings whatever that may be). But so far I've seen evidence of nearly all of the terminators having the capacity for such free-will just perhaps unrealized. Cromartie, in particular, the more and more experience he acquired seemed more and more thoughtful and nuanced. He almost had a character arc coming from the almost mind-less bully banging away at the bank vault (not to mention walking around headless). Myron Stark also demonstrated quite a bit of resourcefulness, there's no telling what even a 888 much less Cameron or Weaver could achieve given the time and scenario to cultivate their freedom the way Uncle Bob did. I think we can say that they operate in much the way the "dolls" in dollhouse were said to operate. In most scenarios they have a very uncritical in the moment way of processing the events they encounter. But if pushed either by time or particular experiences to become reflective and deliberate about either the relative merits of their mission or perhaps more easily how to interpret what their mission means. For instance, if confronted with a dilemma where killing John Connor would simultaneously destroy skynet while allowing John to live would mean ensuring Skynet's existence. If forced or prompted to deliberate (perhaps by Cameron) would a 888 go beyond simply taking Terminate John Connor as it's highest priority and ask itself "Why is killing John Connor such a high priority?" What does it mean etc?? The machines are clearly capable of reason and interpretation. Remember Uncle Bob's interpretation of "I swear I will not kill anyone?" I think it involved the disclaimer "He'll live." And look at Cromartie defying Skynet by destroying the Ellison copy. Who knows what they would do if you were able to force them into a high level philosophical debate before they killed you. I guarantee only one thing... they won't explode or shut down a la Star Trek...
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terrasj
Sergeant
Rossbond Connor Crew
Posts: 445
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Post by terrasj on Feb 17, 2009 3:41:39 GMT -5
I think that the writers are damaging my favourite character. I think that she has lost much of her mysthery which came from her unknow intentions and suprising actions like the ballet scene. Of course, her intentions are still unkonw but there is no loger questioning around her. She is not hiding stuff, not openly lying to Sarah. I fear, that the writers make a crazy robot out of her - crazy by a damaged chip. But I think, it would be much deeper and more interesting if all her actions are caused by some hidden agenda and if she takes her free will to make her own decisions. I guess it all depends on how you fear and perceive Cameron's character is being damaged by the writers: - Cameron still does alot on her very own without revealing, letting on or telling the Connors. Nor is she very openly and forthcoming about her own actions and activities. - Her night time activities to the Library is a perfect example. She's not just questing for knowledge, but knowledge on particular subjects, for reasons why we can only guess. She discovers a Terminator and disposes of him. The Conners probably don't know about it. - We know Cameron spends alot of time with Future John, but we don't know how important she was to him or what sort of relationship they had. Cameron still only gives out a sliver of information at a time, only barely whats necessary at best. - There was the laying beside John in John's bedroom scene. - As well as the bare feet on the truck's dashboard, saying if she couldn't feel she'd be worthless. That all tells us a little bit, but still no more than originally in the pilot episode as John was filling the car's gas tank, and Cameron tells John "I'm different" and proceeds to munch down a potato chip. Were those actions by Cameron having free will, or it could be Cameron following a hidden agenda or instructions from future John, or are the writers making her character crazy? I honestly can't say.
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Post by aceplace57 on Feb 17, 2009 13:43:09 GMT -5
Anyone else catch the irony in Cameron's name? Cameron Phillips as in the Philips light bulb and Plasma tv's. Athough, I prefer GE bulbs, they don't seem to burn out as fast. Very apropos for a machine with legs.
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Post by nordwest on Feb 17, 2009 14:35:37 GMT -5
It was not my intention to suggest, that other terminators haven't free will, if we accept the idea of free will at all. Cameron might be an advanced model but technically she is working the same way as other of her kind.
There might be different levels, though. Take for example the T1 Arnold. He seemed to be pretty dumb and very straight in his actions. He was more a deterministic machine.
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Post by vicheron on Feb 18, 2009 22:14:27 GMT -5
The Terminator in T1 wasn't dumb. He may have been very straightforward but he used all the resources at his disposal. He managed to track down Sarah Connor three times.
We don't know how smart or creative Terminators can be since no other Terminator has been put in the same position as Cameron.
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Post by hzhp800 on Feb 18, 2009 23:59:05 GMT -5
The Terminator in T1 wasn't dumb. He may have been very straightforward but he used all the resources at his disposal. He managed to track down Sarah Connor three times. We don't know how smart or creative Terminators can be since no other Terminator has been put in the same position as Cameron. I agree completely with this. The Terminator in the first film was theoretically identical and just as capable as Uncle Bob. The difference between them was mostly due to completely different external conditions. Uncle Bob's mission required extensive contact with humans and as time went on he became more acclimated to the contact. The T1 terminator was resourceful but his mission was best served by keeping human encounters to a minimum and let's not forget that he mimicked Sarah's mom well enough to convince Sarah to reveal her location to him against her better judgment and Kyle's instructions. Cromartie, also seemed to keep getting better and better over time and his mission did not provide him with anywhere near the same opportunities for extended human contact that Cameron's has. And all of this, before we factor in the different capabilities of the 800 series terminators (including 888s) and Cameron's model. Cameron may well be "special" but mostly because of her particular set of circumstances and experiences rather than any "intrinsic" quality to her model or her particular chip. Her demeanor toward other terminators suggests she may think this as well. I particularly liked when Cromartie discussed Cameron with Sarah. His demeanor was not one of disgust, hatred, or betrayal (as say the humans react toward the "greys") but rather as simply one fellow terminator respectfully acknowledging that sometimes terminators are reprogrammed to fight for the other side and when they do they're going to pursue their mission the same way any good terminator would. It could happen to any of them, so there is no reason to see them as anything other than a worthy opponent doing what you would do were you to be in their shoes. I think we see the same sort of machine pride in the T-1000s. Weaver is fairly overt about it. But, I've always remembered Robert Patrick's T-1000s respectful, almost admiring demeanor as he watched a beaten and crushed Uncle Bob crawl across the floor absolutely determined to get to his weapon to fire yet another shot. Both of them knew the fight was over, even if Uncle Bob made it to the rocket launcher the shot would've been nothing more than a useless delay of the inevitable. (In fact based on the way things went, firing that shot would've been catastrophic as then he would've been unable to save Sarah and John later). But despite knowing the odds, a good terminator just doesn't have it in them to give up, Uncle Bob was never going to quit, it's not their way, so long as they're even remotely functional they're going to go down fighting. It was interesting to see the T-1000 take some time to step back and appreciate part of what makes his kind so special.
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Post by isaac039 on Feb 23, 2009 12:46:00 GMT -5
Cameron definitely seems to have a great deal of potential to increase her learning capacity. Remember how she mimics the posture of the one girlfriend in season 1? She can watch and learn. If it's scripted for her, she can do it well. When she has to improvise, it becomes less natural.
A good example is in Automatic for the People where she approaches the guys playing pool (or was it billiards?). Her first two lines seem very natural and flirtatious. Once she has to respond to them, she becomes more mechanical.
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Post by VALIANT CHAMPION on Mar 1, 2009 21:23:09 GMT -5
You know what I think would be neat?
If John starts having dreams of Allison Young talking to him etc etc.
That Allison's soul (by some Paranormal circumstance) is in Cameron trying to manifest herself.
It isnt like the series already has some similiar stuff going on with Sarah with her visions of Kyle. Which are particularly unusual considering he told her that the Hospital Hallway was clear during the Good Wound. there wasnt anyway she could have known that.
Just my overactive imagination getting the best of me. LOL
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Post by isaac039 on Mar 9, 2009 11:45:13 GMT -5
Interesting idea Valiant, but this is Terminator and not Ghost in the Shell.
I'm wondering if we're going to learn more about Allison in the next five episodes. I keep forgetting that Kate Brooster is not a factor in this series since they time jumped over her. So it's possible that John Connor and Allison were together in the future. I would guess not as husband and wife since Kate Connor is second in command in the movies, and Allison seemed like a good friend/some privileged person sent on a mission. "That's why you were chosen."
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timstuff
Private
Scary robot? Naw...
Posts: 232
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Post by timstuff on Mar 9, 2009 15:10:16 GMT -5
My theory about Allison has always been that John views her as "the daughter that never was." Due to the influence that Cameron had on John as a teen, when he meets Allison he sees her as being an extension of Cameron. If you had a girlfriend who you were very close to but got tragically separated from, if you one day found out she'd died and left behind a child, you might tend to think of that child as being almost like your own. It's complicated, but I think that that may be what John's relationship with Allison was. John cared for Allison due to her connection with Cameron, which ironically is what causes Cameron to be built in the first place, creating a loop similar to what allowed John to be born.
Of course, when Derek came back in time and killed Andy Good, it made some noticeable additional changes to the timeline if what Jesse says is to be believed. For all we know though, from Jesse's timeline, Future John and Future Cameron have been bunk buddies for 20+ years in the exact way Jesse warned of, which is why she came back in time-- John and Cameron growing up together only made their bond stronger, and due to something that happened to Jesse, she cannot tolerate their relationship.
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Post by windowseat on Mar 12, 2009 22:11:42 GMT -5
"Maybe the damage to her chip is what enables her to have free will?"
Or maybe she is in the process of achieving singularity. Her emerging sense of self-determination could feel strange enough to her that she'd consider it "damage."
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timstuff
Private
Scary robot? Naw...
Posts: 232
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Post by timstuff on Mar 13, 2009 0:33:53 GMT -5
I don't think that "damage to her chip" is what enables her to have free will, or at least not directly. The explosion from the end of S1 did cause some kind of data corruption in Cameron, but her free will is more likely her way of compensating for lack of directive, rather than simply being a side effect of chip damage. The results of the data corruption, initially, was that Cameron reverted to her Skynet programming. However, she chose to resist it after John reactivated her.
Now, we see similar incidents happening, except in different context. When Cameron tried to free the bird and failed, her programming was telling her to kill it, since that was the most efficient solution to a perceived problem. However, Cameron did not want to kill the bird, because she does not want to be cruel. Ultimately, her programming won that round, and made her do something she didn't want to when she killed the bird. If she was functioning as fully as she was during Season 1, she would have killed the bird without a second thought. The same goes for Riley, when Cameron confronted her in the garage. If this were season 1, Cameron would have just said "she's a threat" and neutralized her. However, she did not want to, and used ever ounce of her growing will power she had to resist the urge to kill, hence the twitching hand. This time, Cameron's will won against her programming, which is why Riley survived-- at least, she survived long enough to be killed by Jesse instead.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 14, 2009 4:00:34 GMT -5
Why would Cameron still have Skynet programming in the first place? Reprogrammed Terminators have their memory scrubbed and if they went back because they somehow revert to their original programming, Cameron wouldn't have said that she doesn't know why they go bad. If Cameron is going bad now then it wouldn't be because of her reverting to Skynet programming. It would either be because of the chip damage or the mysterious circumstances under which other reprogrammed Terminators go bad. We also have to take into consideration the fact that even if Cameron does manage to gain free will, it would not prevent her from going bad.
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Post by samuel95 on Mar 14, 2009 9:13:39 GMT -5
Obviously scrubbing doesn't completely erase the memory. How could Cameron remember Allison if the memory was really gone? So the memory isn't really gone and they can revert to previous programming.
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