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Post by Hollow Crown on Mar 7, 2009 23:39:22 GMT -5
In regards to the title, this may be a LONG shot, but it kinda does make sense. But this indie UK mathcore/metalcore band called Architects (who are offically my favorite band) recorded a song in late 2008 called "Ourselves Alone", but re-recorded it for their new album with the title "We're All Alone", but the lyrics remained the same with just a different sound.
Anyway, here are the lyrics:
"Ourselves Alone" by Architects.
I am your hero Still I walk alone at night In years you'll thank me For getting everything right I am the sun Still I sit alone in a red sky Keeping my eyes on you Were all alone
In time you'll find that Were all on our own (all on our own) Were all on our own , chasing nothing My dreams have fallen , I'm wearing thin I need something to fill this void im constantly in And I can't do this
I'm your hero I just don't care tonight In years you'll forget me I got everything right I am the sun I didn't rise today I left you in darkness
And I just dont care anymore about you You can sit and suffer alone without me
Im your hero Save your thank yous
In times to come I'll rise above this But for now I can't I'll just sit here My dreams have fallen once again My dreams have fallen once again
I need something to fill this void I'm in.[/b]
Seriously, it may be a long shot since they're very young and from the UK, so not a lot of people outside of the UK know of them, but the lyrics scream Cameron trying to warn John about Riley. The whole "I am your hero and in years you'll thank me for getting everything right" gives me that vibe. I'm not ruling out the possibility since the writers range from all sorts of ages and difference in culture, so it could be possible.
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Alexis
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Post by Alexis on Mar 7, 2009 23:54:40 GMT -5
Another thing.. Cameron and Sarah are switching places an awful lot... Sarah had struggles with killing and went through a mental journey and came out the other end able to kill. Cameron has been struggling NOT to kill (bird) and went through a 'mental' journey due to her glitch (though it's not over, I'm sure) and is currently unable/unwilling to kill (Riley) Sarah used to always trust John and has now told him straight out that she doesn't believe him. Cameron used to not trust John and/or question him and now she's completely put her trust in him by putting her 'life' in his hands. Maybe that's nothing, but it makes me go "hmm" That's not nothing. It all jumped out at me too. This is more of the Sarah-Cameron line blurring. They both contemplated killing Riley. Sarah didn't believe John, Cameron put her "life" in his hands. And we now know that in addition to protecting John, Cameron is there to train him. Sarah's job: protect and train. If Cameron was sent back by future!John (which we really don't know, we just assume), isn't it odd that he sent himself a robot mother? Yes. I think it's weird that John would send himself back a robot mother while saving his mother's life. You know? FutureJohn apparently thought he needed more protection/training/mothering/whatever.. so he sends back Cameron to save his mother and have her skip over her death. But why? Why if Cameron is doing essentially the same thing that Sarah is? Unless of course FutureJohn didn't think that and Cameron was sent by someone else or sent herself back. Another reason FutureJohn could have sent back a robot mother is Sarah died in the timeline were he sent back Cameron. He had no guarantee that jumping over Sarah's cancer death would prevent her from eventually getting cancer again. If Sarah gets cancer and dies he will still need/want a protector/mother figure around. Excellent. Brilliant. Triple karma! I totally agree with your respective posts, which certainly seem to be complementing each other perfectly. I think you’re making the right questions here. And this might be the starting point for a major theory. I’d like to share with you my point of view on this particular matter: Taking into account what you said above, I’d like to develop my own perspective (just speculating as always): Cameron sending herself back is a fascinating possibility. But in order to make this assumption possible, let’s just take for granted that Cameron was sent by future!John. Now, we’re going to let aside all the shipper and romantic stuff and get strictly into a psychological/scientific based reasoning. In the timeline where Cameron comes from, Sarah’s supposed to die from Cancer. So maybe future!John sent back Cameron to stop Cromartie and time-travel to skip the date of her dead so she could be by present!John’s side to face/stop Skynet’s arise and JD. Ok, cool, but if Sarah was to die from Cancer two years later, isn’t she supposed to get sick and die in two years either way? The dynamics of the illness hasn’t been completely explained yet, but I’m pretty sure that this is the same Sarah with the same body and the same tendency to have Cancer. Sad but true. Maybe future!John regretted not having his mom in that crucial moment and thinks it would be better if he had her by his side, but he also must be aware of her inevitable mortality. Maybe he even had to deal with some other major loses [Alison?] and perhaps he realized that human love made him vulnerable and he raised the conclusion, just like Sarah did, that to fight the machines you must learn to act like them and think like them, till the edge of becoming like them. And that might be why future!John sent Cameron back, not because he wants her as a mother figure but as the perfect companionship for avoiding any possible human emotional ties, which would make him a weaker leader. In other words, maybe future!John learned that being attached to humans made him a weaker leader, so he might want present!John to learn that earlier. The problem is present!John is actually having an emotional involvement with the machine he sent back to pull him away from emotional dilemmas. And the result of that experiment is a new future!John who isn’t emotionally attached to humans but emotionally attached to Cameron, and set the stage for Jesse (in case she’s representing a rebel resistance faction that wants the metal out of the game) to come after Cameron in this timeline. Presumably Jesse dislikes Sarah Connor because, in her timeline, she’s not the heroine she was in Derek’s and the previous timelines, probably because neither John Connor is the kind of leader and hero he’s supposed to be in the previous timelines. Well, you know me, always speculating.
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terrasj
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Post by terrasj on Mar 8, 2009 0:05:44 GMT -5
In regards to the title, this may be a LONG shot, but it kinda does make sense. But this indie UK mathcore/metalcore band called Architects (who are offically my favorite band) recorded a song in late 2008 called "Ourselves Alone", but re-recorded it for their new album with the title "We're All Alone", but the lyrics remained the same with just a different sound. Anyway, here are the lyrics: [snip] Seriously, it may be a long shot since they're very young and from the UK, so not a lot of people outside of the UK know of them, but the lyrics scream Cameron trying to warn John about Riley. The whole "I am your hero and in years you'll thank me for getting everything right" gives me that vibe. I'm not ruling out the possibility since the writers range from all sorts of ages and difference in culture, so it could be possible. I myself enjoy an indie group from Finland... (Poets of the Fall). Inspiration can come from anywheres, not limited to music lyrics. The lyrics do fit Cameron pretty good. You should do a Cameron tribute fanvid with that song (if you already haven't) I guess I know where your alias is from now. Googled the group and its one of their album titles, with that particular mentioned track on it. Architects: Hollow Crown: 06. We Are Alone.
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Post by Forte21x on Mar 8, 2009 0:08:35 GMT -5
It's a similar situation here. Future John is like the Oracle in Oedipus. He sees what will come to pass and he sets things in motion but how everything turns out in the end will not be because of some divine decree issued by future John. Everything will happen because of the struggles and sacrifices of the people who are involved and that is what they will have to live with once everything is over. After John sends Kyle and Uncle Bob back in time to their deaths, he's not going to just say, "well, that's fate." He's going to have to live with that decision regardless of whether or not it was "meant" to happen just like how Oedipus had to live with everything he had done even though it was preordained. Similarly, if Cameron does develop free will then the simple excuse of "Future John programmed me to do this" will no longer be enough regardless of whether or not she actually carries out those orders. If Cameron develops a conscience then the problem no longer lies in having to do things because they have to be done, the problem lies in having to live with herself after doing those things or not doing them. If Cameron develops free will then she would be just as accountable as anyone else. As far as we know, she hasn't yet. That's what allows her to kill people or simply let them die without facing the same scrutiny as the human characters. Although so many people practically worship her character, they wouldn't care anyway. I'm not to alluding to anyone here on this forum. But I have seen those fans and they are rabid and foaming at the mouth. I've given alot of thought about it, and I don't think of it as a convenient writer's excuse... These are my opinions, just hear me out... I agree that it makes sense for Cameron to store parts or keep Vick's chip. Since she had a good explanation for John I wonder why she didn't just bring this up earlier. Why lie about storing parts again? But if you think Future John told her to lie, then there isn't anyway to look beyond that. I hope to see greater resolution regarding trust before the season ends. Cameron has displayed odd behavior, even for her, and I'd like to see the reasoning behind it. Even if it's something like Future John is dead and she came back on her own. But that would be channeling T3. If the series has the time, I wonder if present John would ever get so frustrated with Future John's manipulation that something has to give.
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Post by VALIANT CHAMPION on Mar 8, 2009 0:39:09 GMT -5
It's a similar situation here. Future John is like the Oracle in Oedipus. He sees what will come to pass and he sets things in motion but how everything turns out in the end will not be because of some divine decree issued by future John. Everything will happen because of the struggles and sacrifices of the people who are involved and that is what they will have to live with once everything is over. After John sends Kyle and Uncle Bob back in time to their deaths, he's not going to just say, "well, that's fate." He's going to have to live with that decision regardless of whether or not it was "meant" to happen just like how Oedipus had to live with everything he had done even though it was preordained. Similarly, if Cameron does develop free will then the simple excuse of "Future John programmed me to do this" will no longer be enough regardless of whether or not she actually carries out those orders. If Cameron develops a conscience then the problem no longer lies in having to do things because they have to be done, the problem lies in having to live with herself after doing those things or not doing them. If Cameron develops free will then she would be just as accountable as anyone else. As far as we know, she hasn't yet. That's what allows her to kill people or simply let them die without facing the same scrutiny as the human characters. Although so many people practically worship her character, they wouldn't care anyway. I'm not to alluding to anyone here on this forum. But I have seen those fans and they are rabid and foaming at the mouth. I've given alot of thought about it, and I don't think of it as a convenient writer's excuse... These are my opinions, just hear me out... I agree that it makes sense for Cameron to store parts or keep Vick's chip. Since she had a good explanation for John I wonder why she didn't just bring this up earlier. Why lie about storing parts again? But if you think Future John told her to lie, then there isn't anyway to look beyond that. I hope to see greater resolution regarding trust before the season ends. Cameron has displayed odd behavior, even for her, and I'd like to see the reasoning behind it. Even if it's something like Future John is dead and she came back on her own. But that would be channeling T3. If the series has the time, I wonder if present John would ever get so frustrated with Future John's manipulation that something has to give. Which goes back to what I said that he will reach a certian level of proficiency as seen by Cameron that she will transfer command protocols to present John. Already she is reasoning to a certian degree that it is logical that present John to have a better understanding of the situation than future John did.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 8, 2009 0:52:30 GMT -5
It's a similar situation here. Future John is like the Oracle in Oedipus. He sees what will come to pass and he sets things in motion but how everything turns out in the end will not be because of some divine decree issued by future John. Everything will happen because of the struggles and sacrifices of the people who are involved and that is what they will have to live with once everything is over. After John sends Kyle and Uncle Bob back in time to their deaths, he's not going to just say, "well, that's fate." He's going to have to live with that decision regardless of whether or not it was "meant" to happen just like how Oedipus had to live with everything he had done even though it was preordained. Similarly, if Cameron does develop free will then the simple excuse of "Future John programmed me to do this" will no longer be enough regardless of whether or not she actually carries out those orders. If Cameron develops a conscience then the problem no longer lies in having to do things because they have to be done, the problem lies in having to live with herself after doing those things or not doing them. If Cameron develops free will then she would be just as accountable as anyone else. As far as we know, she hasn't yet. That's what allows her to kill people or simply let them die without facing the same scrutiny as the human characters. Although so many people practically worship her character, they wouldn't care anyway. I'm not to alluding to anyone here on this forum. But I have seen those fans and they are rabid and foaming at the mouth. It's questionable if Cameron killing people is a sign that she has no free will. In T2, Uncle Bob couldn't kill anyone precisely because he had no free will and was ordered not to kill anyone. Presumably, if he hadn't been destroyed at the end, he would have been able to disobey John's order and kill people.
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terrasj
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Post by terrasj on Mar 8, 2009 2:16:36 GMT -5
Awesome speculation there Alexis Here we go into the paradox vice again (grins) (Yes, Schmacky's probably gonna come hunting me down with a big iron frying pan for mentioning paradox again ). In the time loop cycle just prior to Cameron being sent back, where Cameron initially interogatted Alison, then somehow got into the resistance camp and into Future!John's trust... If that John had any weaknesses, it was probably lack of personal companionship, and lack of people that didn't see him as a celebrity. Over an unknown length of time, John spend alot of time in Cameron's company. What all transpired between them - whether it was purely plutonic or romantic in nature, we just have no idea. Further mudding the fact is Cam's own suggestiveness and flirtation in Present!John's bedroom a few episodes back. Thats a big unanswered question there. I think sending "Uncle Bob" back the first time already was the major factor influencing John's disposition and affinity towards Terminators, making him pre-dispositioned towards friendly Terminators by the time that timeline carried full cycle to the J-Day that followed it and his introductions to Cameron. Its just one big cyclic domino effect. And as you and others noted, whatever Future!John's involvement with Cam was, this cycle around, Present!John's got an emotional involvement with her now, that'll further modify Future!John's opinions as J-Day rolls around once more. Much like we talked in last night's chat, every cycle adds / introduces a new element into the picture. I've given alot of thought about it, and I don't think of it as a convenient writer's excuse... These are my opinions, just hear me out... I agree that it makes sense for Cameron to store parts or keep Vick's chip. Since she had a good explanation for John I wonder why she didn't just bring this up earlier. Why lie about storing parts again? But if you think Future John told her to lie, then there isn't anyway to look beyond that. If we take a look at Season2 as a whole, the way Present!John was behaving with Riley, lots of rebelious teenage hormone flowing there, the rebelious acting out, not listening to mom, being rude to Cameron and all that... I don't blame Cameron having kept it a secret. True, this kept secret also extends well back to Season1, when Cameron was trusted to Thermite the other endoskeletons. I think theres 2 or 3 different reasons why she kept it a secret this long until now. 1. (Season1) - It was important for Cameron to build up and gain John's, and to a lesser extent- Sarah's trust, and being the good girl, obeying their requests best she can, despite having to learn not to kill other people (which irked Sarah to no end). Openly disobeying Sarah's command to fully dispose the Endoskeletons and arguing / lobbying to keep some spare parts would've not bode well for Sarah tollerating Cameron as it currently was. 2. (Season2) - Cam's glitch had put a strain on the Connor's relationship, and even though John risked his life to re-activate her, and later covered up for Cameron (Alison from Palmdale), he certainly wasn't thrilled of her gltch ridden 'antics' (amnesia, etc). It wasn't a good time to just come out with "Oh, by the way, I've been hoarding spare parts in secret." John probably would've gone ballistic, report it to Sarah and have those parts disposed of. 3. (Season2) - Sofar Cam's glitches were mostly wetware affected - memory / identity, giving pause to think and re-think before listining to Sarah's order, etc. The damage hadn't affected her physical motor skills. So no reason to need the spare parts yet. So keep that ace up her sleeve yet. 4. (Season2) - John's infatuation with Riley causing John to do dumb rebelious things, from forgetting to set the house alarm after Riley left, or entrusting Riley to arm it on the way out, ditching Cameron every occasion to meet with Riley, taking a trip to Mexico, and John smarting off Cameron, treating her like a 5th wheel. Again, not the best time to bring up the "Hey, i'm hoarding spare parts" line by Cameron. 5. (Season2) - 2x17, Now Cameron's experiancing some physical glitches, and needing some repairs that'll hopefully help fix the issue. She had begun attempting to fix it herself when John dropped in. She also knew Sarah's not trusting John again, pointing fingers at him about Riley. Nows the best time to be honest with John, (and she was on all fronts - even later with the pocket watch / locket). And coincidentally, and unknowingly to both, Riley's out of the picture. Just by luck, good timing. And it paid off in spades. That bit of honesty begun mending their season2 long rift, that was more like sibling rivalry than kindred kinship that had begun forming in Season1. I wouldn't discount that possibility either. In some ways it'd make sense, even if TSCC practically wrote-off T3. Its possible that something did happen that John did get killed, and especially if Cameron was powerless to stop it, or it happened when Cameron wasn't around John. Maybe an inside job perhaps, Jesse's faction here... It'd be reason enough for Cameron to hastily escape / flee and send herself over to Present!John. Cameron did have retinal clearance access to practically everywheres in the Resistance HQ that John had. I'd say she did it for a few reasons, one being out of greif and survivor's guilt of failing to protect him those fafeful moments, as well as they'd be hunting for her next, and lastly, to self redeem herself to try and protect Present!John. If there was anything romantic going on between Cameron and Future!John, she probably misses Future!John, and there'd be a possible chance to rekindle a similar relatinship with the younger John. Hopefully if we see some greater resolution before the season ends, hopefully it'll shed alot more light on why Cameron was sent back or if she came back on her own accord. Yes and no I think. Future!John knows himself best, so he'd be in the best position to setup some orders / instructions or guidlines for Cameron to follow and teach Present!John. Sure, were I in Present!John's shoes, it'd probably be and feel irritating as heck knowing that Cameron knows stuff that the future me talked about and said, and Cameron's witholding it from me, only doting on as she sees fit. But then, sometimes too much info isn't a good thing either. Knowing or finding out stuff before I'd be supposed to or before I'm ready for it could be a bad thing also. Yet, personally I wouldn't be too mad at myself, if theres something that furure me was holding back until such a time, there'd probably be good reason for it. Again, this is highly subjective to personal opinion. I just think Present!John should've taken all the opportunity he could've to talk with Cameron, be interested and try to listen every time she had something to offer, and constantly ask her about the future. Even in the Mr. Fergeson is Ill Today, in the bedroom, I think Cameron had a fair bit to offer to talk about Future!John, even though her approach was flirtatiously suggestive, she was trying to get more than one message through to Present!John, who unfortunately only had a Mexico romp rendevous with Riley in mind. So hopefully, John will be more receptive of what Cameron has to offer in the way of Future!John. But I guess thats debatable as Cameron said Present!John's already farther ahead.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Mar 8, 2009 2:16:54 GMT -5
Yes. I think it's weird that John would send himself back a robot mother while saving his mother's life. You know? FutureJohn apparently thought he needed more protection/training/mothering/whatever.. so he sends back Cameron to save his mother and have her skip over her death. But why? Why if Cameron is doing essentially the same thing that Sarah is? Unless of course FutureJohn didn't think that and Cameron was sent by someone else or sent herself back. Why would you even begin to think in terms of 'replacing' Sarah? Why does there have to be only one protector and teacher? I don't see what is odd about it at all. I agree with T101 here. Cameron is John's bodyguard (although I think she has an agenda regarding Sarah, too, but I've no longer a sense of what that may be, just that it exists). Sarah is John's mum. Those two roles don't co-exist happily. It's better to separate them out as far as possible, even though that's not currently possible. Presumably, Future!John's plan was that Cameron would guard his younger self, freeing his mom to fight skynet and be, y'know, his mom. That, alas, didn't work out and now both Cameron and Sarah are working against a rising anxiety that they will run out of time before they can accomplish their goals. Future John can be manipulative but I don't think he's a master manipulator. John knew Kyle's future but we don't actually know what, if anything, John did to encourage Kyle. We don't know, for example, that John knows the story about the photo. In fact, given that TSCC has shown Sarah to be extremely close-mouthed about her time with Kyle, even with John, we have reason to believe that he doesn't. Apart from which, John doesn't need to manipulate Kyle. He already knows that when Kyle goes back in time, he'll fall in love with Sarah and his birth will be the result.
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Post by nordwest on Mar 8, 2009 13:44:32 GMT -5
This has been a well written and directed episode. As expected it has been focused on John Connor and the various women around him with a focus on his beloved crazy robot girl Cameron and fooling human girlfriend Riley.
We finally got Rileys true mission, which was less awkward than expected in the first place. I always found it unbelievable, that given John a fooling girlfriend will turn him away from Cameron in the long term, because a relationship totally based on lies would have never worked. Her true mission has been to get killed by Cameron and by this turn John against his killing machine. I always disliked the Riley plot line because of its implications: It seemed to be possible to fool John with any random girl. In season 1 he has been fooled by Cameron and in season 2 he is fooled by girl sent by a rebellious resistant fighter fraction. This fraction is represented in the show by another fooling sexy woman Jesse - fooling Derek. I still think, that we have too many fooling women in the show and especially around John.
Now let us take a closer look at the John Connor we have got in this episode. He is more of his own mind and more independent especially of his manipulative robot girl. He stated the obvious when complaining about Cameron's future John said this or that hint, because Cameron can tell him anything about future John without proves. John makes it clear in the sandwich scene, that he understands what Cameron is going for. I especially like how he prepared his important questions for Cameron both in the sandwich scene and also when asking Cameron if he can keep secrets. I am not sure, if Thomas Dekker is the right choice. It might have all better worked out with an actor more cool than nice. Then the sexual tension between Cameron and John would have been less awkward and the John character would be less the hormone controlled boy. Also I do not like the sound of Dekkers voice when John is angry.
Finally the may be most annoying character of the show got a few great scenes and Leven Rambin played the Riley part great. When Riley saw how Cameron worked on her endoskeleton there was poor horror in the scene. The writing of the Cameron and Riley fight with words and the repetitions of "Your are John's sister." was excellent and in this scene Riley was able to stand Cameron by her logic. Finally Riley died in a very tragic action fight. Now at least we have one woman less around John Connor and the character constellation is a little bit less awkward. Unfortunately we have to wait for two more episodes to get rid of another character.
Unfortunately Josh Friedman seems to explore the nature of crazy robot. Most likely the four crazy Sarah episodes are at least followed by three crazy Cameron episodes, although they presumable will be much less focused on a single character than what we got in the Sarah episodes. What I like about the Cameron character is that we can never be sure what we get from her: Is it just the perfect infiltrator mimicry or is it the real Cameron acting. But I think that her chip malfunction is a very bad idea by Friedman. It adds another random parameter to the character. With her glitches everything is possible with Cameron and now we have to ask when do we get the real Cameron, when the manipulating infiltrator and when the malfunctioning crazy robot? It might have been never the idea of Josh Friedman to develop an advanced AI out of itself. It might have been his concept to develop her out of her malfunctions. Was this one of the reasons for choosing Summer Glau? In Firefly she was the crazy killer girl. Now she is the crazy killer robot.
Overall this episode has been a slow family drama within the context of the Terminator universe. The scene with Derek hiding alone in the bushes was almost comical: All the Connor crew is too busy dealing with each other. There is no longer time left to fight Skynet.
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Post by VALIANT CHAMPION on Mar 8, 2009 15:34:26 GMT -5
There are too many people manipulating each other. I think that is what many are critical of including myself. I have heard a lot of casual watchers are alienated by this.
Of course I love the show. Only laying down one critical flaw out of a million perfections.
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Post by Forte21x on Mar 8, 2009 17:24:06 GMT -5
It's questionable if Cameron killing people is a sign that she has no free will. In T2, Uncle Bob couldn't kill anyone precisely because he had no free will and was ordered not to kill anyone. Presumably, if he hadn't been destroyed at the end, he would have been able to disobey John's order and kill people. I wasn't referring to lack of free will making Cameron physically capable. I was talking more about how she can't be judged for killing the sameway we would judge a human character. If Derek killed those guys in the bowling alley or Sarah did, the audience would react differently than when Cameron did it. If we take a look at Season2 as a whole, the way Present!John was behaving with Riley, lots of rebelious teenage hormone flowing there, the rebelious acting out, not listening to mom, being rude to Cameron and all that... I don't blame Cameron having kept it a secret. True, this kept secret also extends well back to Season1, when Cameron was trusted to Thermite the other endoskeletons. I think theres 2 or 3 different reasons why she kept it a secret this long until now. Again, this is highly subjective to personal opinion. There's no getting around the personal opinion aspect. I think that after being caught regarding Vick's chip, Cameron should try to be as honest as her mission allows her to be. Cameron was forced to admit to lying under the worst conditions. When she kept Vick's chip unless she was going to look at it herself in secret she would eventually have to reveal it. Being premptive could have gone a long way. And with the type of blind faith everyone puts in Future John, she could justified herself very easily. And Cameron started off with John's complete trust in S1. Personally, I don't see Cameron revealing the spare parts in the same completely honest light. John walked in on her making repairs and assessed the damage. Either she pretends not to fix it, which might have repercussions down the line or she reveals the spares. And I don't see the kill switch as an issue of honesty. I saw it as a safety for John's protection. If it really works. Don't get me wrong. I think that everything Cameron does is for present John's benefit, as directed by future John. But this is all speculation. What do I think versus what do you think. All I'm doing is speculating and justifying things after the fact. As far as present John having conflicts with Future John, how should that work out in the long term? If present John ever becomes Future John and Cameron says she'll now be perfectly honest, she'll follow his orders, and keep nothing from him, should John just believe her? Given a history of deception and possible manipulation should he have to take out her chip to be sure? Considering the level of control Future John seems to exert, would Present John ever feel like he's really in charge? Cameron said, Future John has better information. He may have superior information. He may even have superior judgment. How do you pass the baton from one to the other? Cameron did say that Future John wasn't here when she gave present John the kill switch. But that doesn't mean Future John won't continue to manipulate the past through Cameron. I should probably move the Present/Future issue to another thread, I might be going off topic here. But the manipulation ties in below: There are too many people manipulating each other. I think that is what many are critical of including myself. I have heard a lot of casual watchers are alienated by this. Of course I love the show. Only laying down one critical flaw out of a million perfections. There may be a lot of truth to that. I really enjoy the show. I think the casting is great. I like seeing Sarah and John as people with depth. You couldn't maintain the movie personalities over the course of the months or years the show will supposedly cover. But the way team Connor operations, so many lies, so much manipulation. It can't function over the long haul. I'd like to see them either change how they operate or see it blow up in their faces and then see them change. Still, I'm willing to wait for that resolution, quite a while if necessary. A casual viewer probably wouldn't.
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Mar 8, 2009 18:06:39 GMT -5
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Post by vicheron on Mar 8, 2009 19:00:42 GMT -5
Future John can be manipulative but I don't think he's a master manipulator. John knew Kyle's future but we don't actually know what, if anything, John did to encourage Kyle. We don't know, for example, that John knows the story about the photo. In fact, given that TSCC has shown Sarah to be extremely close-mouthed about her time with Kyle, even with John, we have reason to believe that he doesn't. Apart from which, John doesn't need to manipulate Kyle. He already knows that when Kyle goes back in time, he'll fall in love with Sarah and his birth will be the result. Kyle fell in love with Sarah before he was sent. It was the reason why he volunteered for the mission. The true paradox here isn't that Kyle was meant to be John's father and everything is predestined. The true paradox is that destiny requires active participation. If they had just waited for fate to take its course then it would not have happened. Look at Oedipus again. Destiny was fulfilled precisely because the characters attempted to avert it. After King Laius learned of the prophecy, he didn't just wait for it to come to pass. He tried to prevent it. Oedipus was warned by the prophet Tiresias not to seek out the murderer of King Laius because it would lead to tragedy. Oedipus didn't listen to Tiresias' warning and attempted to defy that prophecy by finding out the truth, thus fulfilling it. It's a similar situation here with future John and Kyle. Simply waiting for fate to happen won't work. Just because something is supposed to be predestined does not mean that it doesn't require hard work and sacrifice. Future John couldn't have just waited for Kyle to fall in love with Sarah simply because it's his destiny just as Kyle couldn't have waited for the Terminator to be crushed in Cyberdyne's factory simply because that was its fate.
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Alexis
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Post by Alexis on Mar 8, 2009 19:51:18 GMT -5
Its just one big cyclic domino effect. And as you and others noted, whatever Future!John's involvement with Cam was, this cycle around, Present!John's got an emotional involvement with her now, that'll further modify Future!John's opinions as J-Day rolls around once more. Much like we talked in last night's chat, every cycle adds / introduces a new element into the picture. Yeah! And if we keep in mind what Cameron told John in Automatic For The People: "You risk your life to fix me, that was a very dangerous thing to do... That could upset people..." then our panorama with Jesse is complete and everything fits perfectly.
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Post by samuel95 on Mar 8, 2009 21:26:14 GMT -5
Awesome speculation there Alexis I wouldn't discount that possibility either. In some ways it'd make sense, even if TSCC practically wrote-off T3. Its possible that something did happen that John did get killed, and especially if Cameron was powerless to stop it, or it happened when Cameron wasn't around John. This got me thinking about which future is influencing everyone. For the short version, please skip to my question at the end. Sarah was/is influenced primarily by Kyle and Unlce Bob's future. John was initially influenced by them, but is now primarily influenced by Cameron and Derek's future. This future appears different than the T3 version. Cameron's future might have been different than Derek's, but not by much. John was alive when Derek came back. Cameron wouldn't have to come back all the way to the 90's to stop a distant future murder. Cameron is obviously on her first time through history and doesn't come from Jesses' future. Jesse and Riley obviously come from a future where Cameron and John have spent 20 years together, making their perspective unique. So my question for the experts of all things Terminator: Is Derek's J-day of April 21, 2011 the same as what you've seen before? Is it the same as T-1, T-2 or T-3? Has this series posited another J-day?
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