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Post by Forte21x on Mar 8, 2009 23:15:02 GMT -5
I've seen more than one review where someone was didn't like how Jesse and Reily were able to manipulate Sarah and John.
I know that you want to root for them all the time. But when you consider how much insider information they have on Sarah and John, it makes sense. Jesse and Reily know who Sarah and John really are and who they're pretending to be. Given how much they know and how little Sarah and John know about them it makes sense.
I found Reily to be less irritating and John's acceptance of her more believable when her background was revealed.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Mar 9, 2009 0:26:14 GMT -5
I've seen more than one review where someone was didn't like how Jesse and Reily were able to manipulate Sarah and John. I know that you want to root for them all the time. But when you consider how much insider information they have on Sarah and John, it makes sense. Jesse and Reily know who Sarah and John really are and who they're pretending to be. Given how much they know and how little Sarah and John know about them it makes sense. Jesse certainly seems to know enough about John and Sarah to know that the Department of Child and Family Services is one of Sarah's personal boogeymen. She's alreadly lived through losing John to the state once and the DCFS caseworker showing up at her door must have raised old demons. On the other hand, it may have been a fluke. Jesse was angling to get Cameron to kill Riley, in which case, involving the state may have been overkill. You would think that the solution to a nosy social worker is to take John off the grid and ditch the Baum alias rather than kill a teenager.
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terrasj
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Post by terrasj on Mar 9, 2009 1:12:29 GMT -5
This got me thinking about which future is influencing everyone. For the short version, please skip to my question at the end. Sarah was/is influenced primarily by Kyle and Unlce Bob's future. John was initially influenced by them, but is now primarily influenced by Cameron and Derek's future. This future appears different than the T3 version. Cameron's future might have been different than Derek's, but not by much. John was alive when Derek came back. Cameron wouldn't have to come back all the way to the 90's to stop a distant future murder. Cameron is obviously on her first time through history and doesn't come from Jesses' future. Jesse and Riley obviously come from a future where Cameron and John have spent 20 years together, making their perspective unique. Now that is interesting. Its been hinted in previous episodes that Derek and Jesse may be from different parallel futures. Hence Derek's asking Jesse at the beginning of the episode (at the target practise spot) which date was J-Day for her? The only way to garuntee that everyone came from the same future, is if they together in a group travelled back to the past. The date practically changes in every movie, and even the series pushes the date back by a certain amount. Basically J-Day is fated to happen, and each time a new timeloop cycle happens and the previous Skynet catalyst gets thwarted, a new catalyst buds elsewheres. For specific dates, check the Terminator Wiki, further down on the main page, theres categories - films, etc...
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Alexis
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Post by Alexis on Mar 9, 2009 14:30:17 GMT -5
Jesse and Riley obviously come from a future where Cameron and John have spent 20 years together, making their perspective unique. Exactly. So my question for the experts of all things Terminator: Is Derek's J-day of April 21, 2011 the same as what you've seen before? Is it the same as T-1, T-2 or T-3? Has this series posited another J-day? I'm not exactly an expert, but I'd like to try to clear the panorama a little bit: First, forget about the crap T3 and T3's JD (July 24, 2004 btw). Josh stated that this series follows a completely different timeline. As you well noticed, when Cameron was sent back to 1999 to stop Cromartie and then time-travelled with John and Sarah to 2007, the subsequent events that could have led to what happened in T3 were radically altered and a new future was created. That said, now we'll focus on T2 and TSCC. From my perspective (always having in mind it's just my particular point of view and not an official answer) when Sarah, Miles and Uncle Bob destroyed the Cyberdine building and the remaining parts (including uncle Bob's chip and endo), the JD for T2 (August 29, 1997) was postponed till April 29, 2011 (Cameron and Derek's JD) and [presumably] the events that took place since Cameron was sent back and Derek killed Andy Good (TSCC's timeline) created this new future where Jesse and Riley came from. Hope this answer was helpful. PS: Excuse me the rest for going slightly off topic this time. EDIT: Also Allergygal developed an awesome theory about time travel and TSCC here.
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Post by samuel95 on Mar 9, 2009 15:57:40 GMT -5
Thanks for the help. Somehow I knew you'd know. The links are helpful too for us undereducated folks.
Sam
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Alexis
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Post by Alexis on Mar 9, 2009 18:00:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the help. Somehow I knew you'd know. The links are helpful too for us undereducated folks. Sam I'm glad to be helpful but hey, we're all here to learn things from each other. In fact, life is a learning process. So, ever since you can learn something new from me, I can also learn something new from you. We're all here to share and put things in common. And we're all here for the same reason, my friend.
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Mar 10, 2009 16:33:05 GMT -5
So why did Derek really ask Jesse for help? It's not that Sarah couldn't help him out or even John.. but maybe Derek is starting to feel a little inadequate? Sarah might end up getting shot and kidnapped and everything when she goes off alone, but she does come back with good solid information and finds out stuff.
So maybe Derek thinks he needs to do the same. If he really had napped that guy, it's not like he could have told the Connors he enlisted the help of Jesse because then he'd have to explain about her.. so he was going to take all the credit for himself. Hmmm, sounds like Derek is feeling a little competitiveness? lol
I dunno..
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Post by allergygal on Mar 10, 2009 21:44:41 GMT -5
So why did Derek really ask Jesse for help? It's not that Sarah couldn't help him out or even John.. but maybe Derek is starting to feel a little inadequate? Sarah might end up getting shot and kidnapped and everything when she goes off alone, but she does come back with good solid information and finds out stuff. So maybe Derek thinks he needs to do the same. If he really had napped that guy, it's not like he could have told the Connors he enlisted the help of Jesse because then he'd have to explain about her.. so he was going to take all the credit for himself. Hmmm, sounds like Derek is feeling a little competitiveness? lol I dunno.. Since seeing the drone in Desert Cantos, Derek is quite obviously a believer now in Sarah's 3-dots quest. I assume he went to Jesse because Sarah's been "distracted" since the kidnapping and he wants to stay hot on the trail. But I think the main purpose of that scene was for us to see Jesse manipulating Derek... "Is the metal alive and well? Sarah running you around?" Later, Jesse tries to play Sarah too, by implying Riley might have said Derek made a move on her. This is why I think Jesse's plan isn't just to get between John and Cameron, but to bust up the whole team. She wants Derek and Sarah to turn on each other. She wants distance between John and Sarah and she wants John to turn on Cameron. A divided Connor clan would no doubt yield a much weaker future!John and that, I believe is Jesse's goal. She wants a worse John, not a better one, so that her faction will be able to take control of the resistance.
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Mar 10, 2009 22:12:04 GMT -5
So why did Derek really ask Jesse for help? It's not that Sarah couldn't help him out or even John.. but maybe Derek is starting to feel a little inadequate? Sarah might end up getting shot and kidnapped and everything when she goes off alone, but she does come back with good solid information and finds out stuff. So maybe Derek thinks he needs to do the same. If he really had napped that guy, it's not like he could have told the Connors he enlisted the help of Jesse because then he'd have to explain about her.. so he was going to take all the credit for himself. Hmmm, sounds like Derek is feeling a little competitiveness? lol I dunno.. Since seeing the drone in Desert Cantos, Derek is quite obviously a believer now in Sarah's 3-dots quest. I assume he went to Jesse because Sarah's been "distracted" since the kidnapping and he wants to stay hot on the trail. But I think the main purpose of that scene was for us to see Jesse manipulating Derek... "Is the metal alive and well? Sarah running you around?" Later, Jesse tries to play Sarah too, by implying Riley might have said Derek made a move on her. This is why I think Jesse's plan isn't just to get between John and Cameron, but to bust up the whole team. She wants Derek and Sarah to turn on each other. She wants distance between John and Sarah and she wants John to turn on Cameron. A divided Connor clan would no doubt yield a much weaker future!John and that, I believe is Jesse's goal. She wants a worse John, not a better one, so that her faction will be able to take control of the resistance. I loike it. But for a moment there I thought it was a k8ie post because such an idea while mega awesome would be- The ULTIMATE EBIL!!!**- So says the Sultan of Ebil.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 11, 2009 1:07:49 GMT -5
So why did Derek really ask Jesse for help? It's not that Sarah couldn't help him out or even John.. but maybe Derek is starting to feel a little inadequate? Sarah might end up getting shot and kidnapped and everything when she goes off alone, but she does come back with good solid information and finds out stuff. So maybe Derek thinks he needs to do the same. If he really had napped that guy, it's not like he could have told the Connors he enlisted the help of Jesse because then he'd have to explain about her.. so he was going to take all the credit for himself. Hmmm, sounds like Derek is feeling a little competitiveness? lol I dunno.. Since seeing the drone in Desert Cantos, Derek is quite obviously a believer now in Sarah's 3-dots quest. I assume he went to Jesse because Sarah's been "distracted" since the kidnapping and he wants to stay hot on the trail. But I think the main purpose of that scene was for us to see Jesse manipulating Derek... "Is the metal alive and well? Sarah running you around?" Later, Jesse tries to play Sarah too, by implying Riley might have said Derek made a move on her. This is why I think Jesse's plan isn't just to get between John and Cameron, but to bust up the whole team. She wants Derek and Sarah to turn on each other. She wants distance between John and Sarah and she wants John to turn on Cameron. A divided Connor clan would no doubt yield a much weaker future!John and that, I believe is Jesse's goal. She wants a worse John, not a better one, so that her faction will be able to take control of the resistance. I really hope that TSCC doesn't turn into BSG where people are putting their petty concerns over the greater good of all humanity. In fact, the kinds of power plays and maneuverings in BSG won't actually work in the Terminator universe since John Connor was the person who brought the human race from the brink. As for why Derek enlisted Jesse's help, he's been trying to bring her into the fold ever since he met her in the present. He knows that the Connors needs allies. Heck, he was less hostile towards Charlie than Sarah. He's also more used to working with people from the future. Don't forget that when he was sent back, he had a team.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 11, 2009 1:22:46 GMT -5
Since seeing the drone in Desert Cantos, Derek is quite obviously a believer now in Sarah's 3-dots quest. I assume he went to Jesse because Sarah's been "distracted" since the kidnapping and he wants to stay hot on the trail. But I think the main purpose of that scene was for us to see Jesse manipulating Derek... "Is the metal alive and well? Sarah running you around?" Later, Jesse tries to play Sarah too, by implying Riley might have said Derek made a move on her. This is why I think Jesse's plan isn't just to get between John and Cameron, but to bust up the whole team. She wants Derek and Sarah to turn on each other. She wants distance between John and Sarah and she wants John to turn on Cameron. A divided Connor clan would no doubt yield a much weaker future!John and that, I believe is Jesse's goal. She wants a worse John, not a better one, so that her faction will be able to take control of the resistance. I really hope that TSCC doesn't turn into BSG where people are putting their petty concerns over the greater good of all humanity. In fact, the kinds of power plays and maneuverings in BSG won't actually work in the Terminator universe since John Connor was the person who brought the human race from the brink. As for why Derek enlisted Jesse's help, he's been trying to bring her into the fold ever since he met her in the present. He knows that the Connors needs allies. Heck, he was less hostile towards Charlie than Sarah. He's also more used to working with people from the future. Don't forget that when he was sent back, he had a team. How would Jesse's faction vying for power in the resistance fall into a category of petty concerns? I don't think she's doing this for the fun of it. I think she believes in what she's doing — believes that future!John's method of using metal is bad and he needs to be stopped. So my theory is that she's trying to rip apart the whole Connor clan (John's support structure) to weaken him as a leader. That would presumably make it easier for her faction to seize power from him and run the resistance their way before he starts implementing metal in the fight. Sending in Riley caused tension between John and Cameron and between John and Sarah. And now it seems Jesse is working on creating tension between Sarah and Derek. I can't think of any other reason why she'd want to mess with them all of them. The future's not set. Anything can happen.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 11, 2009 2:11:57 GMT -5
I really hope that TSCC doesn't turn into BSG where people are putting their petty concerns over the greater good of all humanity. In fact, the kinds of power plays and maneuverings in BSG won't actually work in the Terminator universe since John Connor was the person who brought the human race from the brink. As for why Derek enlisted Jesse's help, he's been trying to bring her into the fold ever since he met her in the present. He knows that the Connors needs allies. Heck, he was less hostile towards Charlie than Sarah. He's also more used to working with people from the future. Don't forget that when he was sent back, he had a team. How would Jesse's faction vying for power in the resistance fall into a category of petty concerns? I don't think she's doing this for the fun of it. I think she believes in what she's doing — believes that future!John's method of using metal is bad and he needs to be stopped. So my theory is that she's trying to rip apart the whole Connor clan (John's support structure) to weaken him as a leader. That would presumably make it easier for her faction to seize power from him and run the resistance their way before he starts implementing metal in the fight. Sending in Riley caused tension between John and Cameron and between John and Sarah. And now it seems Jesse is working on creating tension between Sarah and Derek. I can't think of any other reason why she'd want to mess with them all of them. The future's not set. Anything can happen. It's petty because of what Kyle Reese said in T1: "Most of us were rounded up, put in camps...for orderly disposal. Some of us were kept alive... to work. Loading bodies. The disposal units ran night and day. We were that close to going out forever... but there was one man...who taught us to fight. To storm the wire of the camps. To smash those metal mother-frakers into junk. He turned it around...he brought us back from the brink. His name is Connor. John Connor... your son, Sarah. Your unborn son." John Connor is THE Savior of the human race. Jesse would need another messiah to replace John. She would have to be completely fanatical to her cause to take such a massive risk. Her concern is petty because of the danger she is putting the world in. The risk she is taking can potentially hurt the human race way more than the risk future John has taken by reprogramming the Terminators.
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Mar 11, 2009 2:41:10 GMT -5
Which is why it makes for fantastic Drama.
How close will she get?
What happens if she succeeds in part or god forbid full?
Talk about a great and exciting storyline.
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terrasj
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Post by terrasj on Mar 11, 2009 2:58:49 GMT -5
John Connor is THE Savior of the human race. Jesse would need another messiah to replace John. She would have to be completely fanatical to her cause to take such a massive risk. Her concern is petty because of the danger she is putting the world in. The risk she is taking can potentially hurt the human race way more than the risk future John has taken by reprogramming the Terminators. And thats what true to the core zealot fanatics do. They're so convinced their belief they subscribed to is the only way to solve/fix a problem that they feel 100% justified carrying out their righteousness. They don't have second thoughts or second guess themselves. They don't think for a moment that they could be bringing about a larger problem or catastrophe. Whatever faction Jesse is of, something terribly horrific must've happened to her (that we'll learn - hopefully) that almost killed her to become convinced of stirring up things for Present!John. And the incredible irony here is that - while Jesse brought in Riley to fall in love with and martyr so that Cameron can be framed and put to blame, (and cause John, Sarah, Derek to point fingers at each other) only ends up causing John to wholeheartedly defend Cameron, trust her unwaveringly ever so more in the past, that it strengthens the foundation of Future!John's trust and resolve to take Cameron into his personal trust, and recruit metals to fight for the resistance's side. Thus what Jesse's convinced to tear down and change for what she thinks will be for the better, she's only become a catalyst in kickstarting.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Mar 11, 2009 11:05:39 GMT -5
I suspect that Jesse is not as entirely stable as she appears. Her speech to Riley went from zero to nutty-bunny in two sentences. I wonder if her plot to get Cameron out of John's life is more personal than it first appeared.
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