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Post by Forte21x on Mar 7, 2009 15:17:38 GMT -5
Am I the only one who thinks Cameron might be going about some of her activities, specifically training John, in an almost unnecessarily manipulative way?
It makes sense that she would store spare parts. But why hide or lie about it, especially after damaging their trust in her with Vick's chip? If she just came out and said future John told her to do this, I doubt anyone would question it.
And when it came to repairing her, I thought it was slightly manipulative. John almost called her on it by asking about her self-repair abilities. Why doesn't she just tell him that Future John wants him to learn these things?
I just think that the female terminator Cameron destroyed would have been a great opportunity for John to learn about them. It feels like they could have played this card earlier and with more consistency.
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Post by gothamite66 on Mar 7, 2009 15:44:17 GMT -5
That's not nothing. It all jumped out at me too. This is more of the Sarah-Cameron line blurring. They both contemplated killing Riley. Sarah didn't believe John, Cameron put her "life" in his hands. And we now know that in addition to protecting John, Cameron is there to train him. Sarah's job: protect and train. If Cameron was sent back by future!John (which we really don't know, we just assume), isn't it odd that he sent himself a robot mother? Yes. I think it's weird that John would send himself back a robot mother while saving his mother's life. You know? FutureJohn apparently thought he needed more protection/training/mothering/whatever.. so he sends back Cameron to save his mother and have her skip over her death. But why? Why if Cameron is doing essentially the same thing that Sarah is? Unless of course FutureJohn didn't think that and Cameron was sent by someone else or sent herself back. Another reason FutureJohn could have sent back a robot mother is Sarah died in the timeline were he sent back Cameron. He had no guarantee that jumping over Sarah's cancer death would prevent her from eventually getting cancer again. If Sarah gets cancer and dies he will still need/want a protector/mother figure around.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 7, 2009 15:46:17 GMT -5
The deception could just be part of the training. Terminators are infiltrators and John will eventually have to deal with both reprogrammed and Skynet controlled Terminators within the Resistance. He has to be able to spot suspicious behavior that would indicate that someone is actually a Terminator. He would also have to be able to tell if a reprogrammed Terminator is in the process of turning. So far, John has not been suspicious enough. Trusting reprogrammed Terminators in the same way he trusted Uncle Bob will get a lot of people killed.
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wb5
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Post by wb5 on Mar 7, 2009 16:00:10 GMT -5
The scene where Cameron kills the bird was a very shocking and well done moment. Earlier in the scene where she was talking to the bird, it was actually really cute, but of course things had to go south after that. I think the arch we saw Cameron go through in this episode was pretty interesting, if you actually take a moment to analyze it. Cameron was definitely "glitching," but not necessarily in the way we might think at a first glance. When Cameron tried to move the bird, that was something counter to her "terminator" programming. If she was in "terminator mode," she would have killed it without a second thought. Instead though, she ended up making a decision, and decided she wanted to relocate it. Unfortunately though, her terminator programming got the better of her, and she ended up killing the bird. However, when we look at what happened when she confronted Riley in the garage, we see that Cameron's will power is starting to overcome her programming. This sort of happened once before, when she deleted her orders to kill John in "Samson and Delilah," but in this case, you could clearly see that she was struggling internally. Her programming was saying "she's a threat, kill her," but her developing sense of ethics and will were telling her "don't do it." If Cameron was functioning 100% to factory spec, she would have killed both the bird and Riley without a second thought. However, the fact that she is even capable of struggling to choose an alternative shows that she may be changing for the better. Like Uncle Bob before her, Cameron is learning to value life, but in her case, there is currently a much greater struggle when she tries to find an alternative to killing. Nice post; I agree with your take on what is happening with Cameron. It was a "nice" glitch, this time around, Cameron is really starting to think outside the "box" of her narrow Terminator programming. A computer who crosses against the light? And she didn't kill Riley, in the end; I'm happy she didn't. It was a pity that Riley couldn't bring herself to confess to John; I think he pretty much knew (or at least, heavily suspects) what is up with Riley, what she said to her foster parents is a dead giveaway (and her fear around Cameron helps). Going to attack Jesse was brave, but stupid. I would have liked to have Riley on the show for a bit longer. This character really grew on me, ever since she led Cromartie around by the nose. That she was willing to confront Cameron in the outhouse was also brave. But no happy ending for her. I'm also glad that Sarah, too, decided against killing Riley and it was nice to see her talking to Cameron once more, at the beginning. Felt like old times. But as I expected, she indeed didn't believe John; otherwise she would have "connected the 3 dots" and realised Riley is from the future, or that she at least was told about the future (but not by John). I don't think John will ever use the killswitch, though. IMO it is there to show the trust Cameron has in him, and her willingness to sacrifice herself for his safety. I really liked this episode, it was touching, suspenseful (though the moment with the most suspense was actually when John was asking Riley if she had something to tell, for me - I was so hoping she would) and it had a logical conclusion. It's a pity that on some other forums, I mostly hear complaints; that the Riley/Jesse subplot dragged on too long (huh?), that is was way too slow, that John and Sarah are fools for not realising Riley is from the future (IMO John did realise this, or at least suspects it heavily, and Sarah didn't really believe John). I don't think it was dragged out at all; shows like BSG or Lost drag things out for a lot longer (but don't get near the amount of criticism that this show does). Another complaint, also heard here, is John's remark that Cameron wasn't meant to fight other Terminators. But it seems a perfectly valid (and caring) remark to me. Cameron has been pressed into service for a mission she wasn't designed for . Which is why she quite often gets her ass handed to her by Terminators like Carter, the nuclear plant T and the one from Alpine Fields. Cameron often wins in the end, because she receives help from the Connors and/or because she is getting experienced in this and often uses her surroundings to her advantage. It's quite clear what Cameron was designed for: infiltration and then assassination (of humans). She's probably smarter, and more able to integrate in human society, than your average T888. But designed to fight other Terminators? The T1000 and T-X, those are designed to wipe the floor with T8xx models and such. But Cameron? She can be happy if she can reach a draw against a T888. If John could have sent a T1000 or a T-X back, he probably would have, but how do you capture one of those (especially the former)??
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t101
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Post by t101 on Mar 7, 2009 16:01:38 GMT -5
Yes. I think it's weird that John would send himself back a robot mother while saving his mother's life. You know? FutureJohn apparently thought he needed more protection/training/mothering/whatever.. so he sends back Cameron to save his mother and have her skip over her death. But why? Why if Cameron is doing essentially the same thing that Sarah is? Unless of course FutureJohn didn't think that and Cameron was sent by someone else or sent herself back. Why would you even begin to think in terms of 'replacing' Sarah? Why does there have to be only one protector and teacher? I don't see what is odd about it at all.
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Post by Forte21x on Mar 7, 2009 16:59:16 GMT -5
The deception could just be part of the training. Terminators are infiltrators and John will eventually have to deal with both reprogrammed and Skynet controlled Terminators within the Resistance. He has to be able to spot suspicious behavior that would indicate that someone is actually a Terminator. He would also have to be able to tell if a reprogrammed Terminator is in the process of turning. So far, John has not been suspicious enough. Trusting reprogrammed Terminators in the same way he trusted Uncle Bob will get a lot of people killed. That's a possible explanation. But a Skynet terminator (one you think is human) would be very different from observing unusual behavior in Cameron, when you know she is human. As far as rogues, Cameron would have to psychologically understand how a terminator suddenly goes rogue and how they act to effectively emulate it. I see your point, it could for John's benefit even if we can't see why. Personally, that's not a satisfying answer. But I can't really argue against Future John, Cameron, or even Derek. Their combination of foresight and hindsight can be used to justify anything. It might simply be that John is too trusting. He might need to be hurt a couple of times in order to shape him the way Future John wants. Strangely enough, that's not too far removed from Jesse's reasoning. She doesn't want to kill John, she wants to mold him into what she thinks is a better leader. Interesting. I just don't want to see a Disney moment where John trusts Cameron despite a history of suspiscious behavior. The kill switch is a big gesture, if it really works. And I believe it does. I know you can't blame Cameron for lying if she's following her programming. But at the same time you can't ignore that she's programmed to lie.
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Post by aceplace57 on Mar 7, 2009 17:46:02 GMT -5
any ideas about the title - Ourselves Alone? The only thing I come up with is... The locket and self-destruct is a secret between Cameron and John alone. I don't know. Maybe there's a better explanation?
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Post by vicheron on Mar 7, 2009 18:59:55 GMT -5
The deception could just be part of the training. Terminators are infiltrators and John will eventually have to deal with both reprogrammed and Skynet controlled Terminators within the Resistance. He has to be able to spot suspicious behavior that would indicate that someone is actually a Terminator. He would also have to be able to tell if a reprogrammed Terminator is in the process of turning. So far, John has not been suspicious enough. Trusting reprogrammed Terminators in the same way he trusted Uncle Bob will get a lot of people killed. That's a possible explanation. But a Skynet terminator (one you think is human) would be very different from observing unusual behavior in Cameron, when you know she is human. As far as rogues, Cameron would have to psychologically understand how a terminator suddenly goes rogue and how they act to effectively emulate it. I see your point, it could for John's benefit even if we can't see why. Personally, that's not a satisfying answer. But I can't really argue against Future John, Cameron, or even Derek. Their combination of foresight and hindsight can be used to justify anything. It might simply be that John is too trusting. He might need to be hurt a couple of times in order to shape him the way Future John wants. Strangely enough, that's not too far removed from Jesse's reasoning. She doesn't want to kill John, she wants to mold him into what she thinks is a better leader. Interesting. I just don't want to see a Disney moment where John trusts Cameron despite a history of suspiscious behavior. The kill switch is a big gesture, if it really works. And I believe it does. I know you can't blame Cameron for lying if she's following her programming. But at the same time you can't ignore that she's programmed to lie. But don't forget that future John is a master manipulator. He basically molded Kyle Reese into the person he needed to be without Kyle even really knowing it. Having Cameron just tell John that everything she does is because future John ordered her to do it would be like if John told Kyle that he's supposed to fall in love with Sarah and then sacrifice his life for her.
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Post by Forte21x on Mar 7, 2009 19:53:41 GMT -5
But don't forget that future John is a master manipulator. He basically molded Kyle Reese into the person he needed to be without Kyle even really knowing it. Having Cameron just tell John that everything she does is because future John ordered her to do it would be like if John told Kyle that he's supposed to fall in love with Sarah and then sacrifice his life for her. The problem with that comparison is that Kyle is a person whereas Cameron is a machine. Since Future John programmed Cameron, we assume, she can justify all her actions by saying Future John told her to. They've alluded to future John as the justification for her actions. She said she can lie to John when the mission requires it. If her mission is to protect John it makes me wonder about that statement. But that's another issue. She openly said it in this episode, Future John told her to keep the parts.
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wb5
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Post by wb5 on Mar 7, 2009 20:08:20 GMT -5
We don't know for sure if Cameron was saying (or at least, implying) the truth, though. "Future John told me so" could also be a convenient excuse, sometimes.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 7, 2009 20:19:11 GMT -5
But don't forget that future John is a master manipulator. He basically molded Kyle Reese into the person he needed to be without Kyle even really knowing it. Having Cameron just tell John that everything she does is because future John ordered her to do it would be like if John told Kyle that he's supposed to fall in love with Sarah and then sacrifice his life for her. The problem with that comparison is that Kyle is a person whereas Cameron is a machine. Since Future John programmed Cameron, we assume, she can justify all her actions by saying Future John told her to. They've alluded to future John as the justification for her actions. She said she can lie to John when the mission requires it. If her mission is to protect John it makes me wonder about that statement. But that's another issue. She openly said it in this episode, Future John told her to keep the parts. The comparison is not between Kyle and Cameron, it's between Kyle and John. Future John is training his past self in the same way that he trained Kyle. Whatever future John did to get Kyle to become Sarah Connor's savior and his own father, he did it without telling him the true purpose behind his actions. Kyle never knew that his true purpose until the very end. It's the same thing with John, he won't know what he has to become until it actually happens.
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Post by Forte21x on Mar 7, 2009 21:08:59 GMT -5
I think I see your reasoning now. You’re talking about the method Future John is choosing to use? I thought you were talking about justification.
John not knowing what he has to become until after it happens is an interesting theory, considering he’s be told almost from birth that he would need to be the savior of humanity. John’s been told what his purpose is so it’s quite different than Kyle.
We could discuss whether or not Cameron’s actions make sense in the long term. Will John trust her when it’s over? What if she’s destroyed or has another glitch.
But like I said before, we can’t argue with Future John. It’s almost like a black hole or maybe a blank check to justify anything. Cameron’s odd behavior encourages you to think about it. And writing it off as Future John’s orders is too convenient.
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terrasj
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Post by terrasj on Mar 7, 2009 22:37:00 GMT -5
any ideas about the title - Ourselves Alone? The only thing I come up with is... The locket and self-destruct is a secret between Cameron and John alone. I don't know. Maybe there's a better explanation? The titles are always meaningful and chosen for a purpose. And usually you have to read between the lines to get the interpretation meant for the episode. However, I think your idea says it best, the title meaning John and Cameron, with the pocket watch, and the pocket watch is intended for 'ourselves alone'. The pocket watch (if you look carefully at it, its one of those antique style pocket watches, but for all intents and purposes, serves nicely as a locket on a chain) symbolizes the bond that exists between them. As I, Rift, Alexis, and Schmacky were discussing in last night's / this early morning's chat, ( -=transcript here=-) , if Sarah and Derek only knew what Cameron made / gave for John. They'd be fighting to get their hands on it. Its not very hard to imagine. And we know right from 2x01, both Sarah and Derek know John's going to be a problem if/when it comes time to deal with Cameron. I think it also could mean / represent a bit of a hark to the future John, where its namely John and Cameron are alone as well, which was the start of it. And now in this episode, it comes full circle. I suppose theres also another possible meaning, brought up in the chat that places emphasis on John and Cam... Sarah's not trusting John about what he did or didn't say to Riley (bleached skulls reference), so that rift that was just barely meanded between them has gone up in smoke, and now John's lost Riley. Derek's still a wildcard out there but actively dislikes / barely tolerates Cameron. John and Cam only really have each other now as being on the same side and trusting friendship. We don't know for sure if Cameron was saying (or at least, implying) the truth, though. "Future John told me so" could also be a convenient excuse, sometimes. But like I said before, we can’t argue with Future John. It’s almost like a black hole or maybe a blank check to justify anything. Cameron’s odd behavior encourages you to think about it. And writing it off as Future John’s orders is too convenient. I've given alot of thought about it, and I don't think of it as a convenient writer's excuse... These are my opinions, just hear me out... I don't think that Future John could've prepared Cameron for everything. The past (current present day) has become too dynamic and rapidly changing in that respect, which would only be available knowledge of events up until Cameron was sent back in time. I think all the Connors situations since jumping forward to 2007 is totally new. So the only thing Cameron has to go on is some specific orders, and probably some general guidelines that were thought up by John in hindsight. The rest Cameron probably has to take what she knows and best adapt them to the new situation. Stashing some of the Endoskeleton parts on the otherhand, even though Sarah wanted Cameron to smelt everything, probably was good common sense and hindsight thinking on Future John's part. So Cameron had to sneak some small stuff away, probably the most common likely parts. Hand and arm actuators, servo motors, etc. Future John knows his own self the best and probably knew while his younger self (present John) would first be a little peeved about Cam's hiding spare parts, but as we all saw, that moment of peeved was quickly replaced by rational realization - theres parts to fix Cameron with. Else they'd be screwed until another Terminator of the week came by, which sofar has been largely by chance. No telling what or when Skynet might send another one at the Connors. Thats basically like a contiginecy plan insurance policey Future John providing for Cameron. Lets face it, Future John's leading the resistance, which also means nowing full well about requiring supplies and ordinance for his people, and aquiring more when possible - basic logistics. I think also, Future John is trying to correct / fix one mistake he did earlier - ordering the first T800 Terminator he sent back - "Uncle Bob" to Terminate once his mission was over. That might've been good thinking at the time, but as it is, it didn't stop or prevent J-Day from happening, nor stop skynet from sending Terminators after younger John. Having Cameron stash away some parts hopefully ensures Cameron will be around for as long as she's needed by John, perhaps well into surviving J-Day. (and incase Sarah still dies early from Cancer, John wouldn't be left alone to defend himself). At the very least, and most importantly, Cameron was honest to John about it that moment rather than lying to him. .... Just to be the devil's advocate, and say Cameron was lying about Future John telling her to stash the parts. I'd think it was a calculated white lie, entirely based on knowing and having spent time with Future John as well as present John, to know them well enough that Cameron deciding to take her own initiative on the choice would be seen and approved by both Johns. While Sarah meant well by ordering all endoskeletons smelted down, it was also terribly short-sighted, leaving no room for what if Cameron gets damaged at some point and is need of spare parts. And, Camaron has exampled in the past to have taken her own initiatives, which usually proved beneficial.
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Post by VALIANT CHAMPION on Mar 7, 2009 23:12:41 GMT -5
I think I see your reasoning now. You’re talking about the method Future John is choosing to use? I thought you were talking about justification. John not knowing what he has to become until after it happens is an interesting theory, considering he’s be told almost from birth that he would need to be the savior of humanity. John’s been told what his purpose is so it’s quite different than Kyle. We could discuss whether or not Cameron’s actions make sense in the long term. Will John trust her when it’s over? What if she’s destroyed or has another glitch. But like I said before, we can’t argue with Future John. It’s almost like a black hole or maybe a blank check to justify anything. Cameron’s odd behavior encourages you to think about it. And writing it off as Future John’s orders is too convenient. We may be seeing John reaching a certian level of requirements that need to be observed in Cameron's mission at which time present John will become Future John in Cameron's programming.This is why she says he is ahead of schedule. And then surprisingly seems to be bending to his will. The clock actually being a token of submission of sorts. Cameron's treatment of Riley in the Garage was strangely human. I can imagine some guy's close friend who has a crush on him get upset at how his girlfriend is causing him hurt and intervenes in a threatening manner to try to drive his girlfriend away. Even more so if it was his big sister. She didnt kill her but said she should have. That sounds like an angry and jealous admirer or protector who doesnt know how to channel their emotions. Maybe all those I don't knows are Cameron's reaction to feeling some type of emotions and not being able to identify the conflict for what it is. So that while part of her is attempting to follow directives the other part is showing free will and the free will is winning out.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 7, 2009 23:24:05 GMT -5
I think I see your reasoning now. You’re talking about the method Future John is choosing to use? I thought you were talking about justification. John not knowing what he has to become until after it happens is an interesting theory, considering he’s be told almost from birth that he would need to be the savior of humanity. John’s been told what his purpose is so it’s quite different than Kyle. We could discuss whether or not Cameron’s actions make sense in the long term. Will John trust her when it’s over? What if she’s destroyed or has another glitch. But like I said before, we can’t argue with Future John. It’s almost like a black hole or maybe a blank check to justify anything. Cameron’s odd behavior encourages you to think about it. And writing it off as Future John’s orders is too convenient. The idea of fate may seem simple but it never makes anything easy. It's a theme that has been explored many times throughout history. Look at Oedipus, the fact that we know from the beginning how he'll end up does not lessen the impact of the story. It doesn't mean that there is no struggle involved. Oedipus was not pushed by some invisible divine hand. That was the tragedy of the story, every action taken was a product of someone's choice, no one forced anyone to do anything. That is why in the end, no one blamed the gods or fate, they blamed themselves. Jocasta committed suicide and Oedipus blinded himself. It's a similar situation here. Future John is like the Oracle in Oedipus. He sees what will come to pass and he sets things in motion but how everything turns out in the end will not be because of some divine decree issued by future John. Everything will happen because of the struggles and sacrifices of the people who are involved and that is what they will have to live with once everything is over. After John sends Kyle and Uncle Bob back in time to their deaths, he's not going to just say, "well, that's fate." He's going to have to live with that decision regardless of whether or not it was "meant" to happen just like how Oedipus had to live with everything he had done even though it was preordained. Similarly, if Cameron does develop free will then the simple excuse of "Future John programmed me to do this" will no longer be enough regardless of whether or not she actually carries out those orders. If Cameron develops a conscience then the problem no longer lies in having to do things because they have to be done, the problem lies in having to live with herself after doing those things or not doing them.
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